Wouldn’t it have to be some directive more important? Somehow, saving Wall-e supersedes?
I might wait to watch Arrival before listening to this week’s podcast (it’s sad I haven’t seen it yet because my daughter’s friend from dance plays the little girl! small world!). But looking at the show notes where Jim says
It was worth a shot
I think Wall-E has a fairly solid storyform to the Issue level. Did you notice how excited we got and how many ways we found to illustrate the OS Issue of Experience? Eve’s influence around Value is totally solid (look how much conflict it creates for Wall-E when she values her mission over him), and Fact vs. Fantasy is totally at the thematic heart of Wall-E’s throughline. Then you have RS Issue of Desire, how amazing is that?
That feeling you get, which came at the Issue level of Wall-E, where you feel like you’re inside the Author’s mind and understanding the story at that level – that’s the feeling you should get when you’re onto the right storyform. It’s not so much about how easy it is to find examples of things; sometimes examples are tricky to come up with – but when you do find them you should feel, “wow, that fits!” and get a sense of understanding the story’s meaning better.
With Wall-E I definitely get that sense down to the Issue level but at the Problem level something is mixed up. There are some commonalities around certain things like Non-Accurate that are cool … but the other illustrations feel like stretching and don’t seem to give more understanding of meaning.
But maybe that’s okay. It may not make a complete argument, and there are definitely some missteps (where it feels like it’s trying to make a complete argument but something’s not right – the trash-compactor scene is good example). But overall it still feels like a pretty great story and worth watching, because it’s good down to the Issue level. My two cents anyway.
Back again, and after reading everyone’s posts there’s not a lot that I could offer that is different.
Be interested in exploring this further. This scene is where I felt that Eve “changed”. She gave up her directive and wanted to find a way of fixing Wall-E. It just so happened that fulfilling her directive (getting the plant to the receptacle) was exactly what Wall-E needed to survive. All of his components were back on Earth so it was necessary to get that plant into the receptacle getting everyone back, just so that she could save Wall-E. Interesting confluence of goals/events.
Just been re-reading all the posts on here and this is a GREAT THREAD! Gleaning a lot of new understanding from re-reading this.
Thanks for all the input over the months. It’s brilliant.
Wow - I never saw this before! So the issue can be on Variation, and the Problem, Solution, Symptom, Response can be Elements under a different Variation?
Yes – but only for the IC and RS throughlines. For MC and OS throughlines, the problem quad is always the quad under the Issue.
(Note: I gleaned this from the software, using the Theme Browser, not from the theory book!)
On re-reading the posts - I did notice that we haven’t expounded the RS story in great detail.
With the current story form - which I would have to say I have finally caught up with everyone’s thinking. (I hope it wasn’t too frustrating for having me be around 2 weeks behind everyone else’s thought processes.)
Regarding the Relationship Story
"A robot romance" concerning way of thinking.
RS Domain: Manipulation
I would hazard a guess that the problems stem from the way each see the other throughout the film. Wall-E at the start wants to drive the relationship into romance - yet Eve, at first, completely ignores him, driven only by her directive. Then upon spending some time with him in his container, warms to him a little - but it is still platonic.
Through the middle of the film, we see points where Wall-E still holds a flame, and wants Eve to reciprocate, whereas Eve is driven by her Directive - and wants Wall-E to help her fulfil it. The battle of wills is about what is important.
Things swap near the end, when Wall-E no longer has the ability to love, and Eve is the one wanting to establish the romantic relationship.
RS Concern: Playing a Role
Do we see this when Wall-E takes on the role of protector/boyfriend.
- Holding the umbrella over her head in the thunderstorm.
- Taking her to watch a romantic sunset - while she is unresponsive?
- Wall-E takes on role of protector again when Eve is sent to repair station. He busts out to protect her. Causing all sort of problems.
- Relationship has a down turn when Eve reassumes her programmed role as “life finder”. And puts Wall-E back in shuttle for Earth.
RS Issue: Desire
Definition: The central thematic topic of the Relationship as it concerns the motivation toward something better.
- Wall-E wants the relationship to be something it isn’t. He seems to be forcing the issue.
- At the end - it is the other way around. Eve is wanting Wall-E to be romantically involved - but his circuits were fried and he just doesn’t exist.
RS Problem: Cause
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The relationship suffers because Eve is stuck in her Cause of finding life (her directive).
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The relationship suffers when Wall-E reverts to the factory settings - as originally programmed. He no longer has the ability to love.
RS Solution: Effect
- The relationship finally resolves when Eve sparks Wall-E - bringing him back to life
RS Symptom: Non-Accurate
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Wall-E sees Eve’s responses to him as wrong (she doesn’t want to hold his hand). He seems perplexed as to her responses to his romantic overtures while in the container.
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Eve sees Wall-E’s romantic overtones out-of-sync with her desire to fulfil her directive once back on the ship after the flying in space sequence. Wall-E plays romantic music. Eve turns it off- “Directive”
RS Response: Accurate
- Eve’s response is to bring things back to her directive. This is what she should be doing. This is correct, this is her programming.
Thoughts anyone?
Hi Brendon,
I think you did a fantastic job describing the RS Throughline there.
Now, there is a caveat … you have probably noticed Jim talking on these boards about how the RS is really about the relationship itself, not so much the characters in it.
Reading through your illustrations, some are bang on about the relationship. Others are very close to talking about the relationship – you can use them as a springboard to describe the relationship.
Here are some examples that might help:
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RS Concern: Playing a Role. Look at your point about the umbrella, the romantic sunset, etc. This is a relationship between robots that wants to play the role of a human relationship! It wants to “be” a human romance.
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RS Issue: Desire is probably very closely related to the Concern … it’s the wanting part of the Concern, the idea that this robot-relationship wants to be so much more than just a robot relationship.
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RS Problem: Cause. I think your first point (about Eve’s directive) is very close – it’s basically that they are robots and have no cause to love – the relationship has no cause to exist at all. (Focusing on why they are feeling and acting the way they do might also cause problems, but I’m not sure if that was ever illustrated in the film.)
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RS Solution: Effect. Yours is bang on – the Solution is when the relationship embraces the Effects it has on them. It doesn’t matter that they’re just robots when you see love’s effects on them. If Eve’s kiss can wake him up, it must be true love!
Your illustrations for Symptom and Response are great, as for those story points it’s okay to talk about the characters, in the context of the relationship. I might also add:
- RS Symptom: Non-Accurate. A romance between robots is way outside of tolerances, way outside their programming, and they know it.
That’s right…that’s when Wall-e must have gotten affirmation in his internal programming that they were doing what the video human directives indicated. Refresh? Not a computer person, here, but at my instinct level something is coming together.
@brendon_oloughlin, good descriptions. Can’t wait to get home and have a few minutes to really look over it. I particulary like the parts of the discussion about how the relationship wants to be more than it is, or something other than what it’s supposed to be. And I didn’t find it frustrating that you were looking at the OS in Manipulation at all. I did the same for quite a while, after all. I’m glad we could all get on the same page in the end.
So following up on what @mlucas was getting at, would you guys say the RS of Manipulation could somehow be about how the relationship between WallE and Eve is affecting, or Manipulating, their behavior as robots, rather than each robot trying to manipulate the other? Is that closer to what the RS should be? That seems like it would work nice as a larger version of Playing a Role where the relationship is playing out like a human one (or, to be more precise, is playing out the way WallE saw the relationship between the humans in the movie playing out).
The relationship issue of Desire, then, might be about how this relationship is about, or wants, more than just directives and the usual cold robot communication.
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And maybe the problem of Cause is how the relationship is causing problems for each of them. It causes WallE to abandon his directive to protect Eve and chase her into space. It causes Eve to be distracted from her directive and to have to put up with/help WallE in various ways while on the ship. The relationship is the Cause of the other robots seeing WallE and Eve as rogue robots.
I’m just kind of going off the cuff here, but I’m liking it. Did I just spot what the RS is supposed to look like? Because I feel like I’m closer than I’ve been before and I’m really excited about it. Lol.
Don’t forget that the classic term of psychology has more possibilities than just manipulation.
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I agree, Prish.
I would say it’s a relationship that struggles with manners of thinking. Robots having a romance, it takes a new way of thinking to even consider that. And the whole throughline exists (the root conflict) because they are evolving beyond their their programmed manner-of-thinking to a new one where romance is possible.
it’s cool that Signpost 1 is Conceiving … since that is when the relationship first conceives its own existence (and the inequity starts out as an imbalance between their manners of thinking about romance).
But that’s kind of what I was saying, right? The relationship that exists between them causes WallE to look to a human relationship for inspiration and takes Eve most of the movie to come around to it because it takes a new way of thinking for the robots to have this kind of relationship. So the relationship is manipulating them, or affecting their robot psychology, to conceive of this type of relationship.
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I see the videos affecting their robot psychology, and it does make sense that robots would get instructions from other sources than just humans speaking words to them. However, I don’t see it as manipulating, which indicates a specific intent to cultivate and/or direct action. It is more a layering of video activities onto the original programming, which created a modified [new] programming. It resulted in a powerful, successful team, so it is logical to them the programming is the goal should continue.
I wonder where serendipity is in the Dramatica theory. The Mirriam-Webster says, “…I once read a silly fairy tale, called ‘The Three Princes of Serendip’: as their highnesses travelled, they were always making discoveries, by accidents and sagacity, of things they were not in quest of….” Walpole’s memory of the tale (which, as it turns out, was not quite accurate) gave serendipity the meaning it retains to this day."
Thanks @mlucas, @gregolas & @prish for the feedback. Haven’t really dug down this deep in a storyform before (other than whiplash - which I am still working through…) [quote=“mlucas, post:118, topic:878”]
Now, there is a caveat … you have probably noticed Jim talking on these boards about how the RS is really about the relationship itself, not so much the characters in it.
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That makes it more difficult, especially in this film as the relationship seems one sided most of the way through. The “goals” of the relationship are quite difficult to pin down as the “relationship”, especially the romantic relationship is one-sided thoughout most of the film.
Trying to see it as a holistic “thing” is a lot harder for me as it really seems to be driven by the characters involved, in this case. I guess it will come with time.
I probably should have said Manipulating, as in the Dramatica meaning of it. So rather than a relationship between robots having a purposeful intent to direct the robots actions, I really only meant that the relationship is what is affecting the way the robots think in that it’s the relationship that causes WallE to look to the movies for inspiration and it’s the relationship that Eve doesn’t seem to comprehend in the beginning and has to slowly come around to.
Which I never have fully understood, so I always grasp for a Psychology tie in to pick up what’s happening. Always feel free to expound on Manipulating, as it helps me to understand the theory use more.
A bit off topic, but Re @mlucas’ input about the RS being about the relationship and not the characters:
I have a lot of trouble picturing the relationship instead of the characters in it. I kept trying to picture a tether, or a rubber band connecting them, but that didn’t help. So I tried to make the relationship it’s own character by putting a face on it. A literal face. Something like this:
This is the guy I picture for the RS. It’s last name is Relationship and it’s first name could be Teacher/Student, Mother/Daughter, Friends, Enemies, Robot Partners, etc. Those weird ear looking things are the rubber bands connecting the characters. I know it’s not the best way of looking at it, but I think it’s helped me a little. Haha.
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So I’m not going to rehash this whole thing, but I started thinking about this one again, and pretty sure everything I had to say was way off.
Seems pretty clear everyone has problems within Universe (trashed earth, stuck on the axiom for 700 years instead of 5, etc).
Pretty sure Wall E suffers from Psychology and not thinking like a regular robot.
Eve is a do-er in Physics as she tries to find and return the plant.
And the relationship grows together or apart over fixed minds, following directives, wall-e being fixated on eve, Eve being embarrassed of Wall-e at times.
That may be wrong but seems much better than what I was going for before.
I think part of the problem with finding a good storyform is that there’s a lot that happens in the movie that isn’t really a problem. The first twenty minutes are just wall-e moving around switching out parts, stacking trash and sun bathing. More world building, I think, than problem solving.
When I saw the movie in the theatre, I felt there was something off with Walle’s transitioning from the beginning and the people ship introduction. There is a misstep going on. I remember Chris giving a lecture showing Hudson Hawk jumping a step that threw the whole movie off. He was right on about it, but I have to think back what steps he was referring to, maybe a Dramatica genre thing. That might be why no storyform seems firm.