Aha! Jim seeing preview = kids seeing whole thing = adults who aren’t Jim watching with sound off.
@jhull – ditto for me as @jhay. Was totally thinking MC in Universe, other than Stop seemed wrong. Now I’m on board with MC T’Challa as a Be-er. The movie feels a lot like Collateral.
@jhay, great pointer on Killmonger as IC in Universe because of his royal blood. This is exactly what challenges the MC T’Challa – the fact that he is royal blood, that he is family, that he was orphaned and abandoned by T’Challa’s father.
For T’Challa in Mind, I can see it like, he’s stuck in the shadow of his father, in the belief of his father as a good king. And he can’t resolve that until he’s pushed to move, to step out of that shadow and see it for what it is.
Dude! That’s like saying, if you can assess the type of art (impressionist vs. abstract etc.) standing 20 feet away, then there’s no point in classifying art. Domains are the VERY broad strokes. And I’m sure Jim knows he’s only making an educated guess which has a high likelihood of being right, due to his experience.
No, the analogue to types of art (impressionist vs. abstract) would be to movie genres (action vs. romantic comedy).
If all action (or even just superhero) films are just de facto in physics, then 1) who cares about domains? They’re just an unnecessarily complicated way to refer to a genre, and 2) why have we been debating the domains all this time?
OS Throughline (Defeating Killmonger’s plot to bring Wakandan weapons to the world)
Domain: Physics. The conflict stems from the activities of Killmonger’s plot, the reaction to it, and the attempts to stop him.
Concern: Obtaining. Conflict stemming from all of:
stealing Vibranium, catching Klaue
winning / defending / losing / cementing the Wakandan throne
taking the Wakandan technology and giving it to oppressed people of African descent around the world
defeating Killmonger
catching the transport ships that are getting away
MC Throughline (T’Challa, the new king who wants to do right by his father’s legacy and be a strong king while remaining a good man)
Domain: Mind. He’s stuck in the belief of his father as this great king that he has to live up to.
Concern: Subconscious. He has a great inner desire to live up to his father. He misses his father, shown in the scene where he says he’s not ready to be without him), which also shows fear. These inner fears and desires cause him personal trouble as he is afraid to step away from his father’s legacy and Wakandan traditions – afraid to govern differently than his father did.
Additionally, he experiences great conflict from the deep guilt he feels when he learns what his father did in the name of protecting Wakanda. This grief hamstrings him in the challenge against Killmonger, causing him to lose the throne.
IC Throughline (Erik Killmonger, Wakandan prince who was orphaned and abandoned in the ghetto by T’Challa’s father)
Domain: Situation. Erik’s influence comes from the fact that he is royal blood, able to challenge the throne. And from the fact that he grew up in the ghetto, and what T’Challa’s father did to him. His physicality and ability as a killer – shown by his body kill-scars – impact everyone especially T’Challa when he’s challenged.
By defeating T’Challa in the challenge, he influences T’Challa’s Situation – his kingship is called into question. This influences him to change his perspective about how to be king.
Concern: The Future. He’s driven to change the future for oppressed black people around the world and this impacts everyone, especially T’Challa. He impacts Wakanda’s and especially T’Challa’s future by taking away his throne. He influences T’Challa to change his mind about how Wakanda goes into the future (setting up a future in which Wakandan technology is shared).
RS Throughline (cousins / rivals)
Domain & Concern: Psychology & Becoming. A relationship initially based on trickery and deceit (both the lies that T’Challa believed and Killmonger’s initial deception before he reveals himself) that struggles to become more. It experiences conflict over the obligations and responsibilities to each other as cousins.
Or it could be that I do Dramatica analysis for a living, built an app from the ground up that does the same thing and is one short of 400 separate analyses – 50 of which I completed on my own, and have written hundreds and hundreds of articles and analyses and blog posts for the past 12 years all centered on the Dramatica theory of story.
I saw I, Tonya last night–thought it was tremendous and so engaging that I wasn’t thinking storyform while watching it. Afterwards, I just figured Ahh, it’s a documentary, there really wasn’t a story–until I visited the water closet. Halfway through–without even consciously thinking of it–the entire storyform hit me.
In other words - I have enough Experience with Dramatica to know that a Marvel comic book movie explores conflict in the Physics Domain. You can see it from the trailer. Plus, I’ve heard enough to know that he argues with his brother over how to lead the country–at least, that’s what I’m guessing - which would fit with a Relationship Story in Psychology.
I could be wrong about the MC in Universe - I was basing that on the fact that he’s king or the son of a king. But if enough people present convincing arguments of him in Be-er, then I could see how that works as well. Does he change into his position as king or accept his role as king, I don’t know…? (Mind to Universe).
Probably would help if I actually go see the thing.
The ability to assess Domains from a trailer doesn’t take away from the experience of the story. I haven’t read War and Peace, but I know enough about Dramatica to know that you can’t have the OS in “Situation” and the MC in Universe (original terminology, people!).
You know I love you–but the only people who say this are people who can’t get enough objectivity from the experience of a story to tell the true nature of conflict from a Dramatica point-of-view. They think a Dramatica storyform is subjective interpretation. It’s not.
Or, they could be a sophisticated way to describe genre beyond “superhero” movies. Dramatica was not designed to generate new ways of telling stories–it was designed to appreciate why and how stories work.
Saying the Domains are an “unnecessarily complicated way to refer to a genre” is like saying that Main Character Resolve and Main Character Growth are unnecessarily complicated ways to refer to character arc. Many would agree with you–but such is Dramatica.
So yes, most–if not ALL–superhero movies place the Overall Story Throughline in PHYSICS and the Main Character Throughline in UNIVERSE.
Just like most–if not ALL–coming-of-age movies place the Overall Story Throughline in PSYCHOLOGY and the Main Character Throughline in UNIVERSE.
Genre is a result of narrative dynamics and concerns–not a storytelling label for Amazon or Barnes & Noble organizing purposes.
If you’re writing an action/adventure why would you put the Overall Story in Mind? Your audience expects Physics–unless you’re doing it for shock value or hubris, you’re going to lose them.
The same reason we debate Domains all the time in User Group meetings and GROUP analyses–because it forces you to step outside of your own subjective interpretations and appreciate your own blind spots.
I only stepped in when I saw the conversation going off the rails–plus, I thought it would be funny to say.
But you’ll see that I defaulted the MC to UNIVERSE because of my own bias–because of my own experience with hundreds of stories from a Dramatica point-of-view.
We debate for greater understanding. And because it’s fun to see the narrative code of story.
I’m not disputing your expertise at all. In fact, I’m not even disputing whether your assessment is correct. My point is that if the underlying structure of a movie or book can be determined without watching it, then I don’t see the value in the framework used to derive that analysis.
The love is, of course, mutual. And you may be entirely correct – that I can’t attain the objectivity from the experience of the story to tell the true nature of conflict from Dramatica’s point of view. Here’s the thing, though: As a writer, I can’t find utility in that analysis.
I was reading your analysis of Raiders of the Lost Arc yesterday, and I’m not going to dispute its accuracy from a Dramatica standpoint, but I’ll bet you can guess the two places where – whether correct or not – it deviates so far from what a person takes away from that movie that I can’t see how it’s useful.
Totally agree.
Also agree with this. That’s why I think it’s kind of secondary to me whether there’s “one true storyform” or not. I’ve never been able to get much use out of those analyses of films in my own work directly, but seeing the ways in which they don’t make sense with my experience of the story – that disconnect – is helpful in sparking ideas for new scenes and new stories and new perspectives.
Yep. I support the ‘@jhull go watch the movie’ campaign also. Got a badge made up and everything. Anyway, I’m going to gently nudge us back to the analysis if everyone is okay with that?
Anyone else have a set of Concerns they wanted to argue for? @Khodu?
But are you ready for Killmonger as the Main Character? (kidding)
On a more serious note, I gave some thought to Killmonger as the Protagonist. But I don’t think there are any potential First Drivers that would support that. We’d need to see like, an incident of ghetto violence or oppression that creates the need for Wakandan tech, not a theft of vibranium or a death of a king.
Sorry, @Khodu, I was asking if you had an argument for a preferred set of Domains or Concerns for the throughlines?
Mike argued Obtaining/Subconscious/Future/Becoming for OS/MC/IC/RS.
Sebastien argued The Past/Conceptualizing/Understanding/Memory.
I know you mentioned Progress/Being/Doing/Preconscious earlier. Do you have an argument for that or any other suggestion? Just want to make sure everyone gets a chance to voice their thoughts.
I’m getting to the point where I feel I’m overanalysing (Analysis paralysis). So I’ll back off for a bit. Maybe see it again this weekend and come back with fresh eyes.
At the minute, I’m 100% with @mlucas (I’m assuming we’re moving ahead with the OS in Physics, MC in Mind Domains for now, but I’m still open to being convinced otherwise).
I can see Doing, certainly (everything the Black Panther does, the War Dog missions and the ritual fighting for the throne, etc.), but I’m struggling to see it creating the conflict. Those acts of doing seem to be efforts to resolve conflict already raging. It might be a benchmark, actually? By the end, there’s a lot more ‘doing’ going on in terms of the drone fighting and the war tribes fighting. I think the conflict is very much stemming from the Obtaining or loss. Even the drivers seem to be driven by the gaining or loss of something (the theft/breaking Klaue out/Killmonger winning the throne/I can’t remember what the fourth one was – bringing T’Challa back to life maybe?/Killmonger dying).
For the MC, I think Preconscious would be my second best for concern but, again, it feels like a Benchmark. His growth is measured by his impulses: “Don’t freeze!”/“Did he freeze?”/“I never freeze.” Which is why, I think, there are those two scenes at the beginning and end showing how he responds to Nakia: that initially, he freezes, and by the end, he kisses her. That feels like a very clear measurement of his growth. And I think, as @mlucas said, the guilt that he feels over his father’s death, his fears that he won’t be a good king, etc. The lack of closure over his father’s death, his denial over the kind of man his father was (and reluctance to be king), his dream of being as good a king as his Dad, his optimistic hope that things will just continue as per normal. All of that seems to be causing him serious anxiety.
I think the IC in Progress is okay (I think Threat would be a good issue for him), but he seems way more obsessed with The Future. Even in burning the heart-shaped herb, his whole motivation for that is “I’m the king now. There’s not gonna be any more after me.” And I think the quad of issues is good: making decisive choices on Wakanda’s future in a way T’Challa never would influences the Wakandans (mostly W’Kabi) to back him; his continued challenging of preconceived traditions (“let’s make them scared of us”) is a real threat to T’Challa, especially since everyone is up for it; he’s pushing for Wakanda to be more open with their technology and their resources (something T’Challa is very much against); and he doesn’t delay at all, he just gets stuff done, which is REALLY bad for T’Challa, who seems to drag his feet a lot and doesn’t really want to be king.
And the RS in Becoming. This is what I wanted to bring up earlier, but held back. Right before the final fight on the train tracks, there’s a brief exchange of dialogue that had a very interesting line that I made a note of:
T’CHALLA: “You want to see us become just like the people you hate so much!”
KILLMONGER: “I learned from my enemies! Beat them at their own game!”
T’CHALLA: “You have become them!”
Which is a very unsubtle way to phrase that concern, but every brief scene with the two of them seems to center around this battle to become a ‘responsible’ leader; or for the relationship to not be changed by this huge, huge amount of power. However, the RS is by far the most underdeveloped part of this story, so I don’t have a lot to grasp for this one.
The second watch especially really illuminated it for me. It’s the first time in my 4-something+ years of learning Dramatica that I’ve felt SO confident in a storyform. I don’t know where the elements or issues are, but I’m near-certain it’s an Obtaining story (with a benchmark in Doing). That said, I’m still open to other arguments and/or to be challenged on this one.
This is great! I was also, after @Khodu’s post, thinking he was seeing the Benchmarks rather than the Concerns (I’ve been guilty of that a few times in the past).
Me too! Did it with Coco (although I ended up going through every corner of the Concerns except for the right one, so… not really the same)! It can be really hard to separate since they’re both appearing the whole way through.
And this one, I think, is really easy to get confused with. I think both of those ‘areas’ (Doing/Obtaining) are fairly strong in all of the throughlines. It just feels to me like the lower left is more rife with conflict and the issues feel stronger. I have a hard time seeing Skill/Experience in the OS and I can’t argue Fact/Fantasy in the IC at all.
Incidentally, if I put all of that into Dramatica (Change; start; be-er; linear; action; optionlock; success; good; physics; obtaining), it gives a Benchmark of Doing, which backs up what I thought above (that’s a feeling I haven’t felt before!).
That said, I’m happy to wait and hear @Khodu’s thoughts after a second viewing just to see if anything changes or if he still wants to argue for the Doing/Preconscious/Progress/Being.
I had another thought on my run today, about T’Challa as a Be-er.
We were talking a lot about Killmonger as a Do-er and that was a great discussion, but we missed* the most important thing: does Killmonger influence T’Challa more toward Do-ing on his personal issues, or more toward Be-ing? (for the IC, how they influence is always more important than what they are)
It’s pretty obvious he pushes T’Challa toward Do-ing with regards to his personal issues (around his father and being king). After Killmonger “kills” him he finally decides to do something about it and tells his father he isn’t going to stand for it anymore, that he has to fix his father’s mistake and deal with the problem they made. (paraphrasing, I don’t recall the dialog that well)
So anyway, MC Be-er and IC Do-er is really cemented for me now.
* or at least I missed it. This thread is pretty long now so it’s hard to double check!
Alright, I’m gonna push this forward cause I wanna try and see if we can get to a final storyform before Jim shows us why he’s the Story Expert. Also because Infinity War is out in a couple weeks and I think it’d be nice to have one week where the boards aren’t being ripped apart by a Marvel movie.
@Khodu, did you want to argue a Doing concern, or are you okay with Obtaining?
(original terminology, people!).
(kidding)