Really? Not Yon-Rogg?
Yon-Rogg feels way more of an antagonist to me, I’m not sure what his influence would be. Sure, he has the whole ‘feelings are bad’ stuff, but she realises that he’s a fake just before the third act, so any influence he has is basically dismissed – and in the sense of ‘logic v feeling’ (in a broad sense, not necessarily in that area of the quads), neither of them really change to the other’s point of view. Instead, she decides she doesn’t have to prove herself to him, which isn’t anything to do with being emotional or rational.
That’s the biggest issue I’m finding: everything is very OS, I’m not even sure there is a definitive IC. Talos is wrapped up in the war, but he is clearly the one that motivates Marvel’s resolve by bringing out his family and fellow refugee Skrulls (I just have no idea what his personal perspective is); Maria and Monica have the ‘do the right thing’ mentality which is already ingrained in Marvel, and therefore not really an alternative; Lawson/Mar-vell is firmly entrenched in the OS and in helping the Skrulls; Yon-Rogg has no personal perspective, he just wants to finish the job and grab the Tesseract; the other Kree don’t have a significant presence; Fury and Coulson are there to protect Earth.
I honestly can’t identify any specific influence or alternate perspective. It all just seems to be Overall Story roles in my eyes.
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I thought his perspective was wrapped up in pushing Veers/Carol to prove herself – the implied argument that because of her situation she has even more to prove than everyone else. As we see in the montage moments, this is essentially the same perspective she’s been facing her entire life – whether you’re a girl on a baseball field or a young woman pilot or someone we “discovered” on a foreign planet with no memory, you have to prove yourself more than everyone else. His relentless pushing of this perspective is what leads to her change at the end–“I have nothing to prove to you.”
I agree that this could have been better illustrated and carried through using the handoff ICs. (Mabye Marie is more RS).
At Do-er/Be-er level, she switches from a Do-er (what do I have to do to prove myself) to a Be-er (I don’t have to prove anything to you).
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That is a very well argued point. I still think all of that ‘prove yourself’ stuff is wrapped up in her MC throughline to a degree, but I might go see the movie again to check it out.
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Remember, the perspective is the perspective of the Story Mind, not the character. Yon-Rogg and the AI handoff duty in the IC throughline (and sorry, Annette, YR is the more compelling IC, the AI is just a big scary monster–making her Carol’s OTHER mentor helps a little, but not as much as is needed–it feels forced). YR impact is as her mentor and the AI impact is, controls their culture and also was her other mentor.
The Palestinian, I mean, the Skrull, who is named Talos and yet does come from Talos IV and have a pulsing hiney-head, is an Overall Story character. He disrupts Order, motivated by a desire to regain Control of Skrull destiny. His method is mostly Reaction to Kree attacks and Protection of his loved ones. He Desire’s freedom for his people, he Changes Carol’s perception of who they are, which causes the MC to grow. He comes to Trust Carol. Most of the rest of it is Storytelling.
Helps me to plot these as changes:
He starts out Testing, goes to Trusting.
Starts out bringing Chaos, but his real purpose is Order for his own people.
He Desire’s to destroy the Kree? Not really–he wants them to leave the Skrull alone.
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IC Manipulation of Carol, to control her power,
MC Activity, taking actions to investigate her true character
OS Mind - the fixed idea that the Skrulls are enemies, that Carol is dangerous, that the Kree are victims, that women are weak. All these ideas are torn down in the course of the story. The purpose of the overall story is to tear down ideas of oppression and control and replace them with narratives of strength and capability. It’s why it’s a modern story.
SS, the Situation with Fury, where they are thrown together battling the Skrulls, then the Kree, like it or not
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This so tidy, I am going to come right out and accuse Kevin Feigy of using Dramatica.
God rest Stan Lee’s soul. I just had dinner with his brother, Larry Lieber. It’s a hell of a thing to lose a brother, whoever he is.
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@GetSchwifty Are you saying he represents all of these OS Character elements?
Interesting – I thought that Fury and Marie took over as ICs. But I guess I could see the AI.
This doesn’t sound like an OS role, does it? Do you think he’s taking on the IC role here?
Actually her change from hating the Skrulls to suddenly believing them seemed like the weakest part of the movie for me.
That said, I still think that Proven/Unproven fits pretty well as the OS and MC Problem/Solution elements.
In the OS, it’s true that Perception seems possible (as I think @BillyBenji suggested earlier) – the Skrulls can hide in plain sight after all.
But if you think about how it’s presented, the question is how do you prove that you’re not a Skrull (they can only download recent memories, so tell me something only you would know, etc.). The word “verifying” comes up a number of times in the Proven gist list.
Meanwhile, the Dramatica definition of Proven says “The moment one assumes that the understanding is Proven, one ceases to look for exceptions.” In other words, it’s a known fact that he Skrulls are terrorists.
Which makes me think that illustrating the Solution of Unproven better would have made Carol’s change of heart more believable. Something like “But can we trust them? I don’t know, but we have to take a chance (unproven)”
@GetSchwifty was about to post but I see now that you just posted!
Really? I see the prejudice theme but I find it very hard to believe that a Marvel superhero action movie would have an OS in Mind. This story feels a lot more like Star Wars to me than To Kill a Mockingbird or The Wizard of Oz.
That movie is political down to its fibers, and intentionally so. You think the Palestine metaphor was a lucky accident?
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I don’t disagree – though I took the Skrull thing more broadly (to include, for example, our attitudes toward the southern border in the U.S.) And also the whole girl power thing, the “I don’t have to prove myself to you,” etc.
Not sure that proves it’s a Mind story though. I’ll have to look at your storyform and think about it a bit!
IMO focus on Falsehood in the OS. The story is about a superior power (male, white, military) thriving on a false narrative, and what happens when that starts to fall apart, when the gurls and minorities get Woke.
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In what way would Memories be a Concern of all the characters (not just Carol)? What would be the Story Goal?
Memories of oppression by the Kree, memories of terrorism by the Skrull, huge motivators in any generations long racial conflict. People can’t let go. Carol’s best friend’s memories of their lost friendship, the little girl’s memories of her aunt carol, how happy she is to have her back. Fury’s not driven by memory.
The story goal around memories is, remember who you are, but forget the past conflict for the sake of peace.
Or Captain Marvel will end it for you.
You might take the Story Goal up a level of abstraction: change everyone’s relationship to their memories so that they align with a productive, true reality, instead of an embattled life and false narrative.
OR: change your relationship to your memories so that they serve you for a better life, instead of controlling you for a worse life.
The inequity in the story is between is the Crucial Element Equity and Inequity - an unequal relationship between Carol and Mar-Vell, and between the Kree and the Skrull. If you change that Main Source of Inquity, Mar-Vell’s and AI control over her memories, and therefore her power, you change the inequities throughout the story.
Around memory, there’s an imbalance between what Carol remembers and who she is, a Kree warrior. When she remembers who she really is, Carol Danvers, balance is restored to her memories and her life. When she realizes the Skrulls are the oppressed and the Kree the oppressors, balance is restored to her sense of justice, and she can now be Captain Marvel, and give voice to the voiceless, as they say.
a very literal case of Inequity and Equity. Literally, inequal status and power over her own life, making real justice impossible.
In the story, as in life, when you have correct memories instead of the stories of the Conquerors, from those perspectives, you have a basis for equality and justice, because balance.
Do I need to add that from the point of view of Captain Marvel, Americans and Israelis are the Kree, and South and Central Americans and Palestians and fill in the blank are the Skrull? It’s a very Lefty movie.
All of that is more in line with a narrative argument than a goal. The goal would, in that case, be something like ‘for Captain Marvel to remember who she is’, and I’m just not sure I see that as a source of conflict anywhere outside of herself. The only one even trying to stop her is Yon-Rogg, who remembers who she is and what happened, but even he’s just trying to keep her under control, not preventing her from working out her identity. There’s no antagonist in the goal you lay out.
But all of that is your personal politics and none of it is in this story. Hypothetically, someone that believed the opposite could argue that the story is reflecting their viewpoint as well as your own. Or they could say that it’s reflective of the US/Mexico wall, etc. Real-world politics aren’t involved in the storytelling of this particular story, as they are in something like BlackkKlansman. In the case of the story presented to us, we just have Kree vs Skrulls.
In this particular story, the primary area of conflict is a war, an external thing. Obviously, the war has been started by ideology and attitudes, but we don’t see any of that conflict in this story. That is all treated like backstory. What we see is the external after-effects of that: Mar-Vell trying to end the war by getting the Skrulls the Tesseract; the Kree murdering her and accidentally creating Captain Marvel; the Skrulls coming to Earth to find the way to the refugees; the war spilling out onto Earth; etc.
Regardless of characters’ attitudes for/against the Kree-Skrull war, the conflict is all external, so it has to be coming from either Physics (hunting for the Tesseract/refugees) or Universe (stuck on Earth amidst an intergalactic war).
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Don’t agree at all, and who says it’s my personal politics? To propose that it’s somehow ‘neutral’ and can be interpreted any-which-way is missing the obvious–if it walks like a duck, it’s a duck. Sure, you can be a climate change denier and interpret data the WRONG way, but stupidity or dishonesty disqualify themselves. What is plain here is the politics of the writers, not my politics.
. Real-world politics aren’t involved in the storytelling of this particular story,
Not a big believer in Star Trek style metaphor, eh?
Yeah, I was trying to articulate that but you beat me to it!
Metaphor or not–whatever it’s drawn from–the question ultimately is how the conflict is presented in the story. I just don’t see how Memory is presented as an overall story source of conflict. We can hypothesize and extrapolate, but within the story I don’t remember anyone saying “never forget!” or trying to keep everyone from forgetting.
The somewhat confusing thing about this movie is the whole amnesia bit. I’m not sure if this is a muddled/incomplete storyform on top of the existing story, or if it’s just storytelling.
But if you can somehow bracket out this structural red herring, I still think the storyform is actually pretty clear (if not perfectly illustrated) and can be deduced from 1) the trailer and 2) the first and last 5-10 minutes of the film.
From the trailer: “I’m not going to fight your war, I’m going to end it” (Concern of Doing, Goal “Stopping the War”)
From the first 10 minutes (fight training scene with Yon-Rogg) – I can’t remember the exact dialogue, but something like “you’re not ready, you have to show me (prove) that you can control yourself”. (Proven)
Last 10 minutes (Fight with Yon-Rogg) “I don’t have to prove myself to you.” (Unproven)
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Form it up 
I’d like to take a look at it.
Even if it’s a ‘Star Trek-style’ allegory (I personally don’t think it’s a strong enough story to maintain that), Dramatica analyses of allegories (see The Crucible) are analysed in terms of their storytelling, not the real-world politics behind them. The politics will change and evolve over time and from person to person, the storytelling is the thing containing the meaning. To you, it may read as Palestine-Israel, to someone else it will be something entirely different, the writer probably thought of something completely different.
Apologies for saying it was your personal politics, that was a poor choice of words. I was clumsily trying to say that you were focusing on a real-world conflict, rather than the conflict that is actually in the story. I didn’t mean to imply that it was reflective of your views, that’s my mistake.
That’s my issue, too. I agree completely on the Proven/Unproven argument you made (even if I can’t place other parts of the storyform), but I just can’t find a place for the amnesia stuff no matter how hard I try. It just feels off.
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