Captain Marvel (or can a character with amnesia be in Universe? A way to get to 15 characters)

I don’t have time to wade through all the responses right now, but I disagree with the interpretation of the montage being “prove yourself.” It has nothing to do with that. It’s (and I vaguely remember someone using this term in the movie) that she’s indefatigable. It doesn’t matter to her how many times she gets knocked down, she’s ALWAYS going to stand back up. She uses this to differentiate what it means to be human vs what it means to be Kree.

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@jassnip

So what Dramatica element do you think would represent that?

And do you think she’s steadfast?

I dig the Talos argument for IC (or at least co-IC). An OS in mind, I’m trying to see it. It seems like most every objective character is concerned about a war of some sort. The SHIELD cats aren’t dealing with fixed attitudes or states of mind.

I feel like it’s remarkably similar to Oblivion. Was that an OS of memory?

Was there ever a Dramatica analysis on that? I couldn’t find one.

No, I don’t think she’s steadfast. I think that she has a two part moment of change, one where she’s willing to listen to Talos and realizes she’s on the wrong side and two the montage where she equates her humanity with her persistence because that’s the piece of her that was always there, even with no memories.

As for the element…idk…ability maybe?
being suited to handle a task; the innate capacity to do or be

That’s also why Yon-Rog’s “prove yourself” argument doesn’t have any weight or baring on her. She’s always had the ability to defeat him. He just didn’t want her to see that and she finally see it for the lie/hypocrisy that it is.

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That she finally sees it is the change. What does she see? The hypocrisy of asking her to prove herself with one hand tied behind her back. Saying “I don’t have to prove myself to you” (i.e. I no longer am enslaved by this absurd and hypocritical double-standard) and blasting him illustrates the change. Having to prove yourself (Proven) switches to no longer having to prove yourself (Unproven).

But you post got me thinking about the “sine wave” that Jim was talking about last week of going from steadfast to changed and back. So

maybe illustrates her steadfast human past, which was taken away from her when they kidnapped her. Maybe the point is that in her human life, every time she faced that “you have to prove yourself more than a man” perspective (e.g. “they don’t call it a cockpit for nothing!”) she effectively stood up and said “I don’t have to prove myself to you.”

To your point – I’ve seen a few articles comparing the Kree kidnapping to gaslighting.

See, I think this is where my confusion on the resolve comes from. Those scenes indicate a built up justification, and then we’re told that fell apart because she lost her memories, but then after the opening scenes, it feels like she’s built it back up again. I’m pretty sure she even ignores Yon-Roggs orders, literally becoming a rogue soldier. And I don’t see how she continues to struggle with proving herself from that point forward. So…

What is her problem?
My problem is that I can kinda see everything being the problem. I do wonder if we’re just projecting our own ideas on to the problem element because it simply isn’t defined well enough. In-fact, I don’t feel like there’s really much conflict in her personal throughline. It almost reminds me of the analysis of Captain America: The First Avenger (the story supposedly lacks an intimate personal problem… and basically everything else).

As she learns about her past, it doesn’t seem to affect her in any way we can that we can understand, besides her crying once. And Carol trying to prove herself is… it’s like it’s already resolved in the first ten minutes. People might push her to prove herself (“smile for me?”), but she doesn’t. The scenes towards the end cause her to appear as if she Changes, but all I feel is that she’s doing the exact same thing she did throughout the entire film. Just blasting people away whenever she gets in trouble. Not listening when others try to control her.

I’d love to see a few examples of how she struggles with Proving herself (or examples of any other problem element) during the middle portion of the film. I think you’ll find the only personal struggles to be within those flashbacks/memories, and at the start of the film. Most the rest of it, if anything, is just outside pressure for her to Change/revert.

My thinking right now is that she’s either steadfast, or her perspective changes really early on. And she may or may not even have a specific personal problem.

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I think that’s true. I can see Lakis’s argument for Proven/Unproven at the beginning and end of the movie, but the whole middle bit is really hard to place. She feels like a change and steadfast character at once.

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Okay so this is where MC Focus (Accurate) and Direction (Non-accurate) come into play.

She is constantly responding to expectations of “appropriate” (Accurate) behavior by doing “inappropriate” (Non-accurate) things, whether its humor (doesn’t Yon-Rogg chastise her for this?) or insubordination (“going rogue”), shooting a jukebox to prove she’s not a Kree (also an example of Proven).

When the creepy biker guy tells her to smile more that’s a sexist expression of what he thinks is appropriate (Accurate) behavior for a woman, will she tolerate (again, Accurate) it? She responds by taking his bike (Non-accurate).

I actually think we can see this the montage moments of her past life too. In the sexist, testosterone-filled world she grew up in (and the airforce), there were certain expectations of what was appropriate for a girl to do. She refused to accept those.

Even the scene when she punches the Skrull/old lady is shockingly inappropriate (though that’s also symptom/response of the OS, Theory/Hunch).

I don’t agree with this. Maybe it’s muddled by the amnesia stuff, but all that cheering in the theater that @GetSchwifty was talking about? That’s the audience responding to a character addressing a personal problem (in my view).

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No, I’ve never seen a dramatica analysis of it. I suspect the OS in Oblivion and Captain Marvel is in activities.

PS Writer Marc Bernardin’s Captain Marvel’s analysis is very thoughtful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAWTdUY-LX0

PPS And these have some good points, especially: “It might be useful to make the audience actually feel some sort of emotional connection… and not just expect us to be awed by the constant rug pulling.” Yes!!!


https://screenrant.com/captain-marvel-unanswered-questions/
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No time to watch the whole thing right now but I watched a bit. So far he makes great points. Interesting that he picks up on the problem of Yon-Rogg not being a force through the middle of the movie. In Dramatica terms, I think the problem is essentially not enough IC perspective (Signposts 2 and 3). I think they were trying to do this with Fury and Marie/Monica, but it didn’t totally carry through.

I guess I’m still interested in the idea that there’s the bones of a storyform there, partly because it could be a good example of how a few relatively minor tweaks using Dramatica could improve a story. And because I enjoyed the movie, even though it was flawed.

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What I think people are responding to (especially women), is the solution/response of breaking free of those chains that tell you to prove yourself, to control your emotions, and to quit because you’re not strong enough.

However, I feel like the problem of being limited and restrained isn’t given any room to be explored in the middle of the film. It ends up feeling like the story is giving this powerful message that young girls should hear, but then we’re not really shown enough of Carol’s personal struggle. We’re not shown why this solution is needed in the first place.

Maybe that’s all the result of an early Changed resolve or a Steadfast MC, I don’t know. But even if she’s Steadfast, there’s hardly any pressure for her to Change throughout the middle of the film.

I agree with the idea that something is lacking in Signpost 2 and 3. I’d propose that it’s not (just) the IC throughline, but the MC throughline as well.

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So much this.

Whenever you see this much back and forth discussion, it means there isn’t enough to be able to say for sure what the story means–which is generally why some people will totally love the film and some people will say meh.

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A video discussion that concurs with some points made here about inconsistent characterizations & thematics.

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