I’ve heard of GMC (Goal, Motivation, and Conflict), which involves characters having all three and an external and internal version of each (ex. external goal of winning a race, internal goal of feeling worthy, though I could also see proving one’s worth as a motivation for the external goal of winning) and I was wondering if any of Dramatica’s story points correspond to those elements, especially both types of goals. I did find a post on another site suggesting that the Concern might be the Goal, the Problem being the Motivation (in which case, does it have anything to do with the Objective Character Motivation?) and the Symptom being Conflict, but I don’t see a way to express both internal and external versions.
Argh… I’ve tried to come up with what I considered an acceptable response, but it never quite captures what I want to say. Let’s try this. You can have a story where the Main Character has an external Overall Goal and an internal Personal Goal, or an external Overall Goal and an external Personal Goal, or vice versa. It depends on the Domain of the Overall Throughline and whether the Growth is Stop or Start.
So for your example of a runner, consider these possibilities:
I want to win a race (external goal, Activity), but I’m just not strong enough (external goal, Situation).
I want to win a race (external goal, Activity), but I don’t feel worthy (internal goal, Fixed Attitude).
I want to have a sense of self-worth (internal goal, Attitude), but I’ll only be content if I can win a race (external goal, Activity).
I want to have a sense of self-worth (internal goal, Attitude), but I’ll only be content once I can think of myself as a runner (internal goal, Psychology).
Four very different stories, even if, on the surface, they seem similar.
As to Goal, Motivation, and Conflict, Dramatica actually uses two of those terms already! XD As you discovered, the Story Goal is the Concern for the Overall Throughline, so that one’s pretty straightforward. The Motivation is… a little more complicated. In terms of GMC, it might actually be closer to the Dramatica Purpose. I have the Goal of winning a race, but I’m specifically doing it because I see that people don’t respect me, so I’ll prove myself to them to make them notice me. (That’d be a Purpose of Self-Aware. Or Change, possibly.) As to Conflict… it could be a lot of things. It might be the Requirement, the Impact Character, or the Symptom, or… What does “Conflict” specifically mean for GMC? Like, is it what gets in the way of the character, both internally and externally? Then it’s the Impact Character… probably. Or the Overall Problem. Like I said, I don’t know enough about it to say for sure.
3 Likes
Hey Sharkcat – I think it’s important to be way more specific about what all of these things mean before attempting an answer.
[Quick historical sidenote: Chris and Melanie started thinking about story because the things they were told did not produce good product. My guess is that this included things like “characters need to have a goal… scenes need conflict… etc.” This doesn’t invalidate them as concepts, but it is a clue about their value.]
So… Goal. What does this mean?
And… Motivation. What does this mean?
Conflict… What does this mean?
I’m not asking frivolously. I think these can be helpful tools, but not if you are vague about them.
1 Like
The way you describe Goal, Motivation, and Conflict sounds more like this:
- External Goal is the Overall Story Goal
- External Motivation is the Overall Story Problem
- External Conflict … maybe Overall Story Symptom as you suggest
- Internal Goal is the Main Character Concern
- Internal Motivation is the Main Character Problem
- Internal Conflict … again you got me on this
Conflict to me is conflict. That seems like such a vague term to throw around, like duh – of course there is conflict.
Most other understandings of narrative do not make the distinction between the objective and subjective views of story. That’s probably what this is trying to approximate.
@jhull Perhaps Internal conflict lies in character makeup Purpose Motivation Methodology Evaluation.
If one must violate something(s) held sacred in one or more of those four areas to serve the external story, then it creates a dilemma between violating one’s codes or standards or risk failure of the story goal.
I’m a healer I hold life sacred, but I’m hurt and angry over the murder of my significant person, I have the opportunity to take revenge on the murderer. Do I violate the standards of what makes my self-identity (purpose, motivation, evaluation) to self sooth or even to protect potential future victims.
1 Like
@jassnip, I think this is the closest to what I think conflict is, because conflict is between things. That’s why it can’t be captured by single story points.
@jhull, would you say that Internal Motivation would be the MC Problem if the character was in Situation? In The Fugitive, Dr. Kimball is certainly personally motivated to clear his name (that’s his throughline, right – that action?) but I’m not sure I would call this internal.
Hmmm… I bet those two words are synonyms in this context. @SharkCat, can you clear that up too?
If it helps, this is the blog where I originally read about it and it breaks down the story of Cinderella into a chart: [http://www.adventuresinyapublishing.com/2010/09/gmct-goal-motivation-confict-tension.html][1]
[1]: http://www.adventuresinyapublishing.com/2010/09/gmct-goal-motivation-confict-tension.html
jassnip seems to have the right idea about internal conflict. External conflict would be like bad guys getting in the way. I wasn’t really concerned about where conflict would go in story points.
I thought a personal motivation would be why a specific character has a specific goal. Is the MC Concern synonymous with the MC’s personal Goal? If so, I thought the MC’s goal would be the Story Goal, unless it’s a step along the way or the equivalent to the internal goal.
I was a bit confused because I could see the external goal as being the Overall Concern/Story Goal if, for instance, everyone in the story is concerned with winning a race, and the MC’s Concern is something like earning respect (by winning the race, though getting a bunch of money could be an equally valid and external Concern, though that looks like it’d require two instances of Obtaining, which wouldn’t work), but what if the Overall Concern was about a bunch of people maintaining a racetrack, which is external, and the MC’s Concern was winning the race, also external? Then I’m not sure where the internal stuff would go, unless it had something to do with the Objective Character traits.
Yes, that article is helpful in understanding your question.
Motivation (as used in the link) is what Dramatica calls Purpose. If Cinderella wants to go to the ball to marry the prince, this is her purpose. Her motivation would be “I’m mistreated at home” or “It’s not fair that they get to go, so I’m going to go too.”
Conflict (as used in the link) is what lots of people call Obstacles. (Even she does this to define Conflict.) I disagree with this – obstacles are one thing. Conflict is something else. Since obstacles and conflict are there to draw out the story, I don’t think they have a specific designation in Dramatica, since it’s about the story, not the things that draw out the story for the most part.
Goal. These can be all over the place. An objective character purpose can be their goal. A subjective character Concern can be their goal, but doesn’t have to be (since Goal implies intent in a way that Dramatica doesn’t demand). To use your example, your MC Concern of “earning respect” – as you noticed yourself – is probably an OS Concern. This solves your “two instances of Obtaining” snag.
My overall take on the post is that it is largely true, but misleading because it is too simplistic. It’s good for you to understand it, but if you think it is the way things are done you are going to make problems for yourself down the road. (It will help you generate stories, but also firm up bad habits, which will then prevent growth in the future.)
It’s also conflating things that Dramatica separates.
There’s something notable too that the post uses Cinderalla. It’s a good choice in that it’s a story everyone knows. But it’s a tale, which means that it doesn’t hold together like a Grand Argument Story – it provides lessons that you can’t necessarily promote up the ladder.
I still think you should define Goal, Motivation, Conflict, Tension. Then go find it in stories. Test your understanding, etc.
Just to clear this up, I’m not saying you should care where conflict should go in story points, I’m saying I don’t think it can. Conflict is about how two or more things interact. It’s not a conflict to say “She has no arm.” It’s conflict when you put her into a swimming contest.
Good point. I guess a more accurate guess as to what they mean in the Dramatica sense is External=Objective, Internal=Subjective regardless of Domains.
But then I read this is in reference to Cinderella and realized I was wasting my time lol
The example is Cinderella, but I’ve heard this many times independent of that story.
OK – To clarify, the use of Internal and External here are used in one context, while Dramatica uses Internal and External is at least SEVERAL different contexts.
CONTEXT #1: OBJECTIVE vs. SUBJECTIVE
In this context, an objective ‘goal’ is the equivalent of the Overall (Objective) Story Goal pursued by the Protagonist, while subjective ‘goal’ is the equivalent of the personal ‘goal’ associated with the MC Concern and is part of the main character’s personal throughline.
This is an imperfect, apples-to-oranges comparison, which may be why it doesn’t seem to translate easily, so let me try to describe the objective/subjective context differently.
CONTEXT #1 REVISITED: OBJECTIVE vs. SUBJECTIVE – GROUPS
In this context, an objective ‘goal’ is the equivalent of the Overall (Objective) Story Goal pursued by the Protagonist and other objective characters, while subjective ‘goal’ is the equivalent of a ‘goal’ associated with the relationship between main character and the influence character and is part of the (Subjective) Relationship Story throughline (the SS Concern).
This is an apples to apples comparison where the baseline examines groups in two forms: one that examines groups objectively from the outside, and one that examines groups subjectively from the inside.
We don’t generally discuss the ‘goal’ of the subjective ('We) relationship throughline – except in theory discussions – because it is implied by the software but not identified explicitly.
CONTEXT #2: OBJECTIVE vs. SUBJECTIVE – INDIVIDUAL
In this context, a subjective ‘goal’ is the equivalent of the of the personal ‘goal’ associated with the MC Concern and is part of the main character’s personal throughline. An objective ‘goal’ is the equivalent of the impersonal influence indicated by the IC Concern and is part of the influence character’s ‘impersonal’ throughline.
The term ‘goal’ here implies conscious awareness, but the reality is that active awareness of these ‘goals’ is not a requirement (but it sure makes communicating the story easier). An influence character need not be aware of the impact it has on the main character to affect influence. A main character need not be aware of what it wants to achieve beyond relief from conflict.
CONFLICT: OBJECTIVE and SUBJECTIVE
Conflict is the byproduct of the effort to resolve an inequity when the effort to affect a solution meets resistance.
Since a storyform is a map of the problem-solving process, it is (effectively) also a map of conflict AND potential conflict resolution.
Conflict, therefore, is most everywhere in a story, which includes the objective view provided by the Overall (Objective) Story throughline, the subjective view provided by the (Subjective) Relationship Story throughline, the impersonal view provided by the Influence Character throughline, and the personal view provided by the Main Character throughline.
Conflict is visible in the broadest areas through genre in the Dramatica structure’s Classes, the more refined areas through plot in the Dramatica structure’s Types, even narrower areas through theme in the Dramatica structure’s Variations, and the most specific areas through character in the Dramatica structure’s Elements.
In other words, in Dramatica. . . conflict exists in (most) all areas and in (most) all contexts – not just the main character problem.
@chuntley, I’m tyring to understand, really I am, and normally I consider my self a reasonably intelligent person, but this explanation made no sense to me. I feel like I got one word in ten and they weren’t necessarily contiguous. Perhaps when you offer these explanations you could give examples with them so that we can learn to apply the lesson/wisdom. How do I use what you just said to find my conflicts?
[quote]If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough.
~Albert Einstein[/quote]
@jassnip, I really think the problem here is that Chris and you are talking about different things. So there is a apples to oranges problem going on, and there is a “you are talking about X and I am talking about Y” problem going on at the same time.
For example, Chris says:
And you say:
This is a question of the author deciding what conflicts she wants to bring forward.
If I am writing a story about a missing convict we can have scenes that focus on the conflict of Pursuit & Avoid or we can have scenes that focus on Approach & Attitude. Or we can have scenes that focus on Purpose and Evaluation if we want – “What is the purpose of a police force – to catch criminals or to protect people? If he vanishes but doesn’t hurt anyone, is that actually bad?”
You get to choose what conflicts are front and center. Dramatica cannot tell you which way to go here.
Taking a step further away from the storyform, into storytelling: you could also decide that the scene you want to put on paper is about said convict waiting outside a house until the people inside leave. This could be really tense and gripping, and have nothing to do with the conflicts laid out in the storyform, but rather – he’s getting cold outside, which might force him to break into the house early. There is a dog inside, does he know there is a dog? That will ruin his plans, too.
These are all different aspects of writing and storytelling and audience engagement.
If this also doesn’t help, then maybe you could provide some examples of the kinds of conflict you are looking for, so the answers here could be more accurate to your needs.
5 Likes