Dramatica vs other story theories. Througlines with inverse emotional beats

Hi–new poster here!

I’ve been using other story theories (Save-the-Cat, K.M. Weiland) to outline my novel but I’m stuck on a question about plot structure. I am considering purchasing the Dramatica software, but thought I’d see if anyone on these forums could answer my questions and summarize how Dramatica theory could help me with them too.

Using other theories, let’s assume there are three throughlines with their own emotional beats:

A-Story: Main Plot Beats
B-Story: Romance Plot Beats
C-Story: Character Arc/Growth Beats

Can a story still be cohesive if the A-Story has a Defeat-Midpoint then a False-Victory but the B-Story has a Victory-Midpoint then a False-Defeat, or if the C-Story has similarly inversed emotional beats to the other throughlines?

Should the emotional beats to each throughline all flow in about the same emotional direction?

Thanks for your time

That’s… hmm. See, Dramatica isn’t terribly picky about the mood or tone of your story at any point except the ending. Speaking in four acts, you can have Success-Success-Success-Failure or Failure-Failure-Failure-Failure, and Dramatica sees it as a Failure either way. What Dramatica is good at is constructing a meaningful, interwoven argument within your story, and that’s through its four throughlines.

What you’re calling the A-Story sounds a lot like Dramatica’s Overall Throughline. B is the Relationship Throughline, and C is the Main Character Throughline. So there’s just one Throughline you’re missing for the complete package: the Influence Character Throughline. (Let me know if you don’t know what the Influence Character is.) Here’s what I mean by interwoven:

  • The Main Character is tied into the Overall Throughline via their Unique Ability and the Critical Element. The MC has some special trait or power that gives them access to the big switch that determines Success or Failure.
  • The Influence Character is tied into the Main Character Throughline via their Unique Ability. The Influence Character’s chief goal is to make the MC change–whether that leads to success or failure, the IC may not actually know or care. But their whole thing is influence, so influencing is what they’re gonna do.
  • The Main Character and Influence Character are tied together via the Relationship Throughline. The dynamics between the MC and the IC within their relationship is what makes the subjective part of the story work. In a romantic story, the love between them is (typically) what gives the story its heart and meaning, but in other stories, it can be a father-son dynamic, or a cautionary figure’s warding away.

One more thing I need to cover, and then I can answer your question more clearly. Dramatica separates the Outcome, an objective look at whether the characters Succeed or Fail, and the Judgement, which is more of a subjective look at whether the MC has purged their demons or collected new ones (like Pokémon!). This gives you the ability to classify stories into four types: Good Successes, your run-of-the-mill smiles-and-rainbows ending; Bad Successes, stories where the characters technically reach their goal, but at a heavy cost; Good Failures, where the characters fail to reach their goal but are happier for it; and Bad Failures, which are your doom-and-gloom. sucks-to-be-you endings.

So to answer your question, we can have a Main Plot that ends positively, but an MC arc that crashes and burns. Nothing at all wrong with that–I’d give Doctor Horrible’s Singalong Blog as an example, if you’ve seen that. You can have the central relationship end, but still reach success, and the MC is happier for it. (Perhaps Ibsen’s Doll House, where the MC’s decision to end her marriage is the best thing that could happen to her at that moment?)

But again, Dramatica has nothing to say about Defeat-Midpoints and False-Victories or whatever. You could take a random storyform and tell it any number of ways–of a character who wins and wins, only to trip at the finishing tape and lose it all in one fell swoop, or of a character who makes one mistake at the beginning of the story and pays for it for the rest of the story, or of a character who wobbles back and forth between success and failure before finally teetering failure-ways and succumbing to darkness. Dramatica has no guidance on that front, and that’s for the better, I say!

4 Likes

Hi @Pablo_Honey_825 Welcome to the forum.

It’s definitely worth it. I’m not familiar with Weiland, but Dramatica takes you so much deeper into your story and helps you understand it so much more than Save the Cat. I could go on for pages about it–trust me on that, I deleted several paragraphs going on about it in drafting this post.

You can’t really use Save the Cat language to ask a question and expect a Dramatica answer. The language isn’t interchangeable. For one, when you assume three throughlines, you’re either leaving out a Dramatica throughline or cramming two together in a way that doesn’t work. For another, the three throughlines offered don’t really match up in a Dramatica-equivalant manner that I can see (Save the Cat doesn’t distinguish between Overall Story, Main Character Story, etc. It refers to a B story, but doesn’t really separate it from the rest of the story, certainly not the way Dramatica does). And finally, Dramatica beats/story points don’t care about false victories or false defeats or dark knights of the soul. Instead, it cares about the source of the story’s problems and how best to deal with them. And Save the Cat doesn’t care about the story’s underlying problems or how to explore them, but whether another movie has done it and what page to put it on.

I see @actingpower just answered as I was typing and looks like that answer covers a lot of what I was about to go into, so I’ll leave it here for now.

2 Likes

Hey Pablo, Welcome! Hope you enjoy your time here.

To answer your questions: yes, a story can have different emotional arcs for each throughline and still be cohesive. Having one arc zig where the other zags can give the story a feeling of richness and depth-- but only if the throughlines come together in a way that creates a satisfying and complete argument. The challenge is figuring out how to make that happen. In my experience, Dramatica can bring you closer to nailing down that cohesive but varied story structure than any other story paradigm.

As for whether the emotional beats to each throughline “should” all flow in the same direction, that largely depends on the story you want to write. How do you want an audience to feel when the credits roll, or they put down your book? Happy? Sad? Something in between? Your answer will help determine which arcs should go in which directions, and when.

2 Likes

On top of all the great answers here, I’m going to reiterate that Dramatica and the other theories don’t “swap” very well because they are talking about different things.

You are talking about storytelling and Dramatica is mostly concerned with the foundation underneath the storytelling.

I think you should buy the software. Here’s why: your questions shouldn’t be questions. The fact that what you are reading has led you to believe you should be concerned with your particular braiding of throughlines means that you are focusing on things that are not remotely problematic*. Understanding why I say that will require more understanding of the theory. So buy the software and study the theory.

*edited to add: your question is important, but not problematic. You’re not dividing by zero or anything. But your question has to do with how a story will feel to a reader, and not anything to do with whether or not the structure is verboten. Which it’s not.

2 Likes

I really appreciate the thoughtful replies from everyone. What I’ve taken from some common patterns in the replies is that what I want to do could work, provided I am able to apply the craft to weave together a thematically cohesive ending. Also, what I’m asking is not something that Dramatic theory answers specifically since I’m comparing apples to oranges, but if I did use Dramatica theory then I may not have these questions in the first place since my story would have a stronger foundation to begin with.

Because of your helpful responses, I’m going to buy the software. I’ll be patient as I learn the nuances of this daunting but from what it seems very effective theory. I’m sure I’ll be on these forums in the future so I look forward to creating with you. Thanks again for all of your time.

4 Likes

What you’re asking is not something Dramatica answers specifically because Dramatica is mostly concerned with what Dramatica calls Storyforming while Save the Cat is only concerned with what Dramatica calls Storytelling. (See http://dramatica.com/dictionary/storyforming-versus-storytelling ) There are Dramatica materials that discuss Storytelling, but Dramatica largely goes out of its way to leave that up to the author. Save the Cat can be a useful tool for what it is (hint: what STC is is less story structure, and more table of contents), but is still light years away from “the last [story paradigm] you’ll ever need”.

In my opinion, STC’s main usefulness at this point is in adding a sense of familiarity…or perhaps predictability to your story. It lets the audience know that the Hero (Dramatica’s term for a character who is both the Main Character and the Overall Story protagonist, because that’s the only kind of main character that STC deals in) may look defeated now, but it will all be fun and games in just a minute, but be prepared because right after that things will look as bad as they could possibly be, will everything work out for this character in the end? (hint:yes. yes, it will. because STC only recognizes Triumph endings [Success, Good in Dram terms] as viable endings) That’s not a bad thing, but it is definitely not required for a story to be a success at the box office (success at the BO being STC’s main goal) or even a success in general.

There were two fatal flaws for me with STC. The first was that nothing I wrote with it felt like my story. Instead of [Insert Title Here] by Gregolas, everything was [Insert Title Here] by Blake Snyder about Gregolas’ topic of choice. The worst was that there simply was no meaning behind any of it. It’s reason for being never went any deeper than Barefoot in the Park and Miss Congeniality did it, so you also need to do it with your screenplay about killer clowns vs the lizard people or whatever.

(I promise this was meant to be a genuine and hopefully helpful reply that only unintentionally turned into a rant about STC)