Inside the Clockwork: Quote of the Day May 5

From Chapter 9: DRAMATICA’S WANKY ARCHETYPES in Inside the Clockwork:

“You’ll notice that the good ol’ original eight Archetypes work fine in Universe, Physics and Psychology but not in Mind. If you try to create them in Mind, the Elements of, say, the Protagonist (Pursuit and Consider) are in the same quad!”

What does Melanie mean? Try it yourself. Here’s the characteristics page from a storyform where the Overall Story is Universe:

here’s a storyform where there the Overall Story is Psychology.

here’s a storyform where the overall story is Physics.

and now finally Mind:

What the hell? They’re in the same quad.

Theme browser seems still to be correct, same storyform:

(Notice this quad is NOT on the Past,Present,Progress,Future line, and all the other ones I present here are.)

Does that mean something? Yeah, it means, as Melanie says in the chapter, the archetypes arrangement DOES NOT WORK when Mind is chosen as Overall Story. Why? Because Dramatica needs perspective for it’s equations to work, and in the case of the storyware they chose Mind to be the perspective from which they looked at the characteristics. Think of it this way:

“When seen from this perspective, Motivations are the most clearly seen dimension of the character. so the 8 Original Archetypes work in three out of four classes. And if seen as Motivation characters, then you can see their Evaluations, Purposes and Methodology. BUT IF YOU SHIFT your point of view of the Characters and see them as Evaluation Characters (rather than Motivation character who has Evaluations), the patterns fall apart). … When you get all the way across the lake to Purposes (the farthest thing from Motivations) then the patterns go completely haywire.”

Note also that as far as the Archetypes go, the four Characterization Quads are NOT equal. Motivation is really the only one where you’ll get the results you want. For the same reason as with Classes, perspective, Motivation is more accurate than either Evaluations or Methods, and things REALLY don’t work with you look at Purposes.

So when you look at the theme browser, easy to see the Motivation quad, right?

Sucker lines right up. Let’s see, what about Methodology…?

In this case, that lined up too.

And now, Evaluation?

hmm, again seems to okay, unless the Theme Browser itself is distorting things. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

and finally, the maligned Purpose quad:

Hmm seemed to be okay.

Hmm.

Taking a look at the storyform where Activity is the Overall Story, here are the Purpose Quads:

okay, here we go: you can see how in this case, the quads in Purpose Characteristics are not aligned in the theme browser.

This doesn’t mean it’s broken, just means it’s making perspectival arrangments that you should, in this case, ignore. You need to design your character’s purposes, evaluations and methods according to story elements. Armando makes some great recommendation for how to do this, as does the Dramatica Theory book, and I expect @jhull has some ideas about this too. :slight_smile:

So here’s a question: does this mean that when Characteristics Quad disagrees with theme browser quad, theme browser wins? Sure seems like it.

Also…did you notice that all the Characteristics Quads are on the Time aligned throughline…? Is that the software or the theory, or me not understanding something?

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Hmm something I’m not understanding here because for the Activity Overall Story storyform, Motivation quads don’t line up either

More will be revealed!

Just when I think I’m starting to get past the “mind blown” part of Dramatica learning, there you go again @GetSchwifty :slight_smile:

I’m curious – how much do writers here actually use the Assign Characteristics feature? I thought it was really cool at first and even more so when I read how Armando approaches it, but in the end I found it to be too time consuming and I wasn’t sure how valuable it was (over just trusting my intuition for OS characters), so I’ve mainly been sticking with the story engine. Crucial element excepted of course.

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I try to use it sometimes, but I end up getting confused and obsessive about it. I went so far as to try to divide the Purposes, Methodologies and Means of Evaluation into Action and Decision categories like the Motivations are presented, but I still question whether it’s “right” or not. And that was before I even realized that the quads in the Character Builder change depending on the storyform.

I do like the idea of the characteristics, though. And after finding this post on Enneagram Types and MBTI (which is what I usually try to use for my characters), I might see if I can actually use the characteristics now without getting so bogged down with making sure that each character has the right one based on their personality as I see it in my head.

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Nice. Read Armando to see how to connect this to story points and scenes.

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“When seen from this perspective, Motivations are the most clearly seen dimension of the character. so the 8 Original Archetypes work in three out of four classes. And if seen as Motivation characters, then you can see their Evaluations, Purposes and Methodology. BUT IF YOU SHIFT your point of view of the Characters and see them as Evaluation Characters (rather than Motivation character who has Evaluations), the patterns fall apart). … When you get all the way across the lake to Purposes (the farthest thing from Motivations) then the patterns go completely haywire.”

So, I think my interpretation is a little off. The software simply has a POV from Motivation. The other three POVS from Evaluations, Methodology and Purposes aren’t even in the software. HOWEVER Melanie then says:

“Still, looking at those other perspectives of Archetypes is a much better way to describe many of the stories that are told. To truly tailor Dramatica, the software, to accommodate that part of the theory, you need to create four DIFFERENT arrangements of the structure that favored each of the four perspectives. We’ve talked about that but it is a mammoth task and will require some time to get it right.”

Illustration coming on this.

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Wow are you ever in the right place

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Me too :slight_smile: .

That’s where it really gets messy – not only do you have dynamic pairs as a source of conflict, you also have dynamic and dependent relationships … it just got too unwieldy.

Yeah, me too, and I especially like the idea of using them (at least the Dramatica categories) to create conflict and story elements – I can really see the potential to make a deeper and richer story. I just need to figure out how to do it efficiently, otherwise I’ll never get anything finished!

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I really like the visualization of the eyes looking at the Mind elements, compared to looking at the other Elements - that’s a great way to think about it (although there is something creepy about those disembodied eyes).

There might be a more basic explanation though, which I hesitate to say because it’s enlightening to watch someone else put it all together – the Characteristics window simply reflect the Overall Story Domain chosen for the storyform.

It defaults to Physics, until you’ve made a choice somewhere in the program, and then the elements rearrange to reflect the Overall Story Perspective. The idea being that these elements are meant to reflect their assignment from that point-of-view.

But totally ignore that, and draw more eyes looking at things!

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Eyes without a face (les yeux sans visage)
Eyes without a face, got no human grace your eyes without a face

MAP keeps emphasizing perspective and the Observer and how it is baked into the model. It makes me think of things.

Ever read Neil Gaiman’s Sandman? The Corinthian at the Serial Killer’s Convention?
He likes eyes.