That’s basically my question, but that can’t be right since isn’t the Story Goal the end point of the story, and the story doesn’t just end when the characters stop fussing with the Symptom and realize what the Problem is. I read something about the Story Goal being the thing the characters think will get them the Solution (so, for example, Obtaining a million dollars to gain a Solution of Control over some failing business), but how would the majority of characters know that when they are focused on Response?
Everything is related to everything–but I wouldn’t worry too much about making connections that aren’t implicit within the individual quads themselves.
In other words, the relationship between the Response and the Symptom and their relationship to the Problem and Solution is more important than any relationship the Response may or may not have with the Goal.
Yes, the Overall Story Response is what the Objective Characters think will resolve the core problem at the center of the Throughline. Eventually there will be those who discover the difference between a Symptom and a Problem–but that does not necessarily guarantee the Outcome of the story.
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Just to add to Jim’s answer from a “still learning Dramatica” point of view… Dramatica helps you see all sorts of things in stories more clearly (a good thing). But sometimes that trips you up because you might think there are certain rules when there are no such hard and fast rules. Like you might notice how the Overall Story Response seems related in a certain way to the Story Goal in one story, so you think it’s a hard and fast rule for all stories, but that’s not the case.
I’m learning that Dramatica definitely has some rules, a framework for a proper narrative, but within that framework it leaves massive room for the author’s creativity to work.
For example, in many stories you might find that the Overall Story Response is almost the right thing to achieve the Story Goal, but it’s not working because it needs to be tempered with the Solution. Once tempered with the Solution, it works. e.g. In Star Wars the rebels keep trying to Effect the Death Star with their piddly X- and Y-Wings, but have little effect (Red Leader: “Negative, it just impacted on the surface.”) until the farm boy Trusts in The Force and switches off his targeting computer.
But in other stories the Response could be totally in the wrong direction, and needs to be abandoned to achieve the Goal. In still other stories, as Jim says, the true Problem might be identified and even the Solution employed somehow, but they still fail to achieve the Goal.
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Yeah, I can relate to trying to figure out “rules” that may or may not be there. I’m afraid that if I let it go and say “I think I get it, close enough,” then I’ll misunderstand something important (like thinking that the RS is about the MC and IC’s different approaches to the inequity) and learn it wrong, messing up everything.
Sometimes I end up with a quad of the potential problem, symptom, solution, response elements but I don’t know which part to assign them to, so I hoped that maybe I could look to the Story Goal (or initial Story Driver) to help figure that out.
When this happens, come to the forum for help! Often others can see things more clearly, not by being experts but just by having a different perspective.
I think sometimes the story ideas that come from deep within us involve the same areas (elements) where we have issues and blind spots in our own lives. Sometimes that makes it hard to see the Problem as a problem, or the Solution as a solution, almost like you have the same difficulties as the characters in your story!
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I’ve definitely felt that before, working with a story form for the longest time only to realize that what I was calling the problem was really the symptom because I was looking at it from the MC point of view.
You will never get it right the first time. Or second. Or thirty-second. I’ve been working with Dramatica over 20 years and still forget to do something or miss an important story point–recently I completely forgot the Influence Character Resolve until the Producer I was working with suggested a note that everyone flipped out over and I was like…oh, duhhh…that’s the Influence Character Resolve!!
Other times I’ve used the wrong storyform for seven years, wrote a story in the completely wrong Concern, and generally completely missed up.
Just think of Dramatica as this constant writing companion that won’t ever let you get away with anything. If you think of it as a learning tool it becomes easier to work with.
Hope that helps!
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How do you tell the difference between productive spending-an-entire-day-thinking-and-fiddling-with-a-form and excessive perfectionism or perhaps procrastinating? I once wrote a novel not knowing what I was doing and I will not muddle through that kind of thing again. I refuse to write a complete draft until I’ve got the form right, but my understanding is often challenged by new info or questions arising from uncertainty (I’ve got no shortage of that), requiring more research and changing the form. It’s been over a year and I just want to be able settle on something with confidence and move on so I won’t have to feel guilty-- I’ve been accused of “over-analyzing” things my whole life and I keep imagining being told that when I spend hours and hours on the form and understanding it.
When I started with Dramatica, it was because I had a story in mind I wanted to write. I had a few ideas about what was going to happen in it, but not what order they needed to happen in or how to connect them. I went through dozens of story forms and fully encoded many of them only to find some wrinkle at the end that didn’t work. I’d find some way to iron out the wrinkle and move on. Sometimes ironing out one wrinkle would cause another to pop up. But eventually I found a story form that I’m absolutely sure is the right one. And if I hadn’t done all of that work, I’d still be trying to figure out which form to use and be no closer to writing my story.
While working with the current story form, I haven’t always known how something was going to apply directly to my story for one of several reasons. Two of the biggest are that either 1) I hadn’t come up with anything for that part of the story yet, or 2) I still didn’t understand Dramatica enough to know how to apply it. I just knew that the parts of the story form I was unsure about didn’t work against my idea or cause any other narrative problems.
There are, of course, other ways of going about it and lots of other reasons a story form might not feel right, but the point is that you might try just working through a storyform that feels close and see where it gets you. One of the biggest takeaways for me about working through so many story forms was that none of the work was for nothing. Even working through the wrong story form still helped me to further my story. And when I got to something that didn’t work, I stopped there, found another form to try, and carried all of my work over to that one.
To answer your question[quote=“SharkCat, post:8, topic:822”]
How do you tell the difference between productive spending-an-entire-day-thinking-and-fiddling-with-a-form and excessive perfectionism or perhaps procrastinating?
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a productive day will hopefully leave you feeling like you’ve gotten a little more understanding about what your story is (or is not) about and how to tell it. And if you’re lucky maybe you’ll’ve whittled a few more options off of the 32,000 + story forms available. Perfectionism is probably when you’re more worried about how properly you can mold your story to Dramatica than how to best let Dramatica help you through telling your story. Procrastinating-and this is meant to sting a bit in a tough-love-to-get-you-writing kind of way-might look like obsessing over story forms for a year and not working through any of them.
Remember, Dramatica is here to help you keep your story focused by mimicking the way the human mind solves problems. You already have the ability to do all of this yourself. Shakespeare didn’t refer to Dramatica when he wrote Hamlet. If you start working with a story form that feels pretty close, you’ll start making the connections on your own. Sometimes even before you get to the part where Dramatica tells you to make it! When that happens, you’ll have the confidence to move on with your story knowing you have the right story form, or you’ll have the understanding to work toward a better story form. Either way, it’s progress.
Ooh! I hate that!
I did feel productive today. I think I’ve almost got it for real this time.
This is why you’re drawn to Dramatica. All I can say is from years and years of experience, you’ll learn way more and get closer to the “perfect” storyform by actually writing and seeing how the different concepts work out in the course of the story.
The theory is super impressive and comprehensive and so it makes sense that you want to get it all down right perfectly right off the bat. You’ll likely never find the perfect storyform for your story because your focus is on the form and understanding Dramatica, rather than producing a compelling and fulfilling narrative.
That’s why Chris and others suggest working on a story you don’t care much about when you first start out learning Dramatica – because it’s hard enough figuring out how it all fits together.
I would say get it as close as you can, then close it up, put it away and start writing and don’t come back for 6-8 weeks. After that first draft then you’ll really be able to excel your knowledge and understanding.
This is beautiful. Well said!
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