Is this structure right for this message?

writing
#41

My first thoughts are:

  1. I think you’re describing a MC throughline of subconscious with problem of avoid. The description reminded me of George McFly in Back to the Future. If MC is change, then OS problem is also avoid.
  2. The OS concern could be either obtaining or becoming. I have a hunch “becoming” will grab you more. Perhaps the protagonist is trying to become something but faces outside opposition. This can connect with the MC throughline at the climax but the 2 throughlines are still separate since the MC was dealing with this avoid fixed attitude even before the inciting incident.
  3. If you want, you can focus less on the OS TL & more on the MC TL (e.g. Hamlet).
#42

Yes, MC is Change. IC is protagonist, I guess, unless I’m confusing roles. IC initiates things.

I suppose OS would be Obtaining since their aspirations are externally focused-- gaining or keeping love/approval (although I think all motivation boils down to wanting to be happy) and I see them as unwittingly suffering due to selfish ways of going about those things. However, that sets Growth as Start, so I can’t use it unless I’m saying that MC Stops Avoiding. That leaves me with a choice of:

If you Start Pursuing your desires, then you can Obtain a better life.

If you Stop avoiding your fears, you can Become a better person. (This sounds more like my message, but I’m not sure this works since my IC Protagonist wants to help MC Become a better person for various reasons like a means to an end for fame 'n such, so how can Become be the Goal?)

#43

Here are few more variations for you to play with:
Stop avoiding your fears and you can transform your life.
Stop avoiding your fears and you can change how you see the world.

I don’t understand, why wouldn’t this work for Becoming?

#44

Because his goal isn’t Becoming? It’s a means to an end. However, I remember another recent thread where I talked about something similar-- oh, it was that I misunderstood that the elements or maybe storypoints aren’t the absolute root of a problem, as in so-and-so is a jerk because they’re mad at their parents etc.

#45

A few thoughts here. First, the characters aren’t necessarily conscious of the Story Goal. They might think they’re after something else (Coco is a good example).

Second, because you’re story’s not written yet you have to be willing to give and take (especially if you’re storyforming from the message first). So if you have some story ideas that sound like they could be Becoming if you shift your viewpoint a bit, don’t dismiss that possibility.

Finally, couldn’t the Protagonist part of the IC player maybe be focused more on “helping this guy become a better person” while the “fame” focus is coming from the Influence Character part of the same player?

#46

I figured that the fame thing would come from IC throughline, but without that drive in OS, I’m not sure what IC’s stake is in OS. I hate the OS-- no matter what I go with, it seems shallow or boring or overly complicated or like a smaller part of something else. I have a bad feeling about any OS for this thing.

I’ve tried picking a Goal from the message I want to say.
I’ve also tried picking a Goal from the point where the status quo in the story is upended (MC sees IC and experiences conflicting desires to stay or go),
but I just can’t pick a Goal because you can come up with justifications for multiple things (if it’s about Innermost Desires, is the Goal about getting rid of fears, gaining peace of mind, or is the fear/regret the Consequence they want to avoid? Or is the Goal like Obtaining a better life to prevent future regret?).

I can’t find the thread discussing the “source” of inequity, although I remember finding the term “source” misleading. Would the source of conflict (not what motivates it), be conflicting Desires (fear vs yearning)? Or is it MC is in a Situation of having “wasted” his life, which causes regret?

I started another thread asking if there’s some way to just make an equation to figure out if your storyform’s structure from message. That’s what I want to know-- how to turn something like “The only way to escape fear is to face it” or “Letting fear hold you back leads to more regret than trying and failing” (should that be Success or Failure?) into a storyform.

#47

I struggle with the same thing for the OS concern & OS problem. One thing that helps me is to ask: what is nearly everyone concerned with (not just the protagonist & antagonist)? In order to drive this home to the viewer, add at least one or 2 objective characters who have concerns in the same concept as the OS concern and/or OS problem apart from the protagonist’s caper. And put some focus on these concerns so that the viewer understands that “they” are all concerned with that sort of thing.

For example:
When Harry Met Sally (OS concern of subconscious)
Most everyone in the Objective Story is concerned with finding the kind of love that will last for the rest of their lives. Serving as a Greek chorus, the documentary couples relay their love stories, while the Objective Characters search for Mr. or Ms. Right. (these characters aren’t strictly “team protagonist” or “team antagonist” but they have a parallel concern in subconscious)

All About Eve (OS concern of becoming)
Margo fears becoming old and ending up alone with only her press clippings to look back on; Bill wants to become Margo’s husband; Lloyd wants to become a more successful playwright by having young actresses play his stage heroines; Karen fears becoming an ex-friend of Margo’s, and thinks she might also become the ex-Mrs. Lloyd Richards when Lloyd pays too much attention to Eve; Max Fabian wants to become the richest Broadway producer ever; Miss Caswell wants to become an actress and uses her looks to get an audition; Eve wants to become a successful actress by simply sliding into Margo’s life on stage and off; Addison wants to become Eve’s lover and mentor for life; Phoebe wants to become the next Eve Harrington.

Ditto for the OS problem. See narrativefirst’s analysis of Lady Bird: https://narrativefirst.com/podcasts/59
Many characters (dad, boyfriend, etc) have a common problem of rejection or rejecting–and not solely in the context of the protagonist’s caper.

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#48

I just want to say how much I’m enjoying this thread @SharkCat even though I feel your frustration!

Have you tried just creating a few possible storyforms and encoding them to see which feels right? Dramatica for Screenwriters suggests this method in the “Dramatica in 30 Seconds” chapter. The advantage to this approach is that it uses a limited number of storypoints so you can try different things on for size. That chapter also has several great examples where he does this with very high-level summaries. Being forced to limit the summary to just a few paragraphs could be helpful.

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