Please help me believe

I’m beginning to believe that Dramatica might be awesome when it comes to analyzing a story, but it absolutely sucks when trying to create one. It causes you to think about a story in a way that isn’t helpful as a writer. The evidence is that I’ve never been able to find a notable author (truly notable, not “I met somebody on an elevator one day who told me they used it,” not “I’m a script doctor in Hollywood,” rather “Steven King | James Patterson | John Grisham swears by it”) who writes with Dramatica in mind.

But, I can’t seem to shake the idea that I just need to work to understand Dramatica better. That scares me because that’ s the mentality of a cult member.

Let me be very clear. I’m posting this here more in a plea to have my opinion changed. I dedicated a lot of work towards understanding Dramatica and i don’t want to flush all that work down the drain. I want to believe. I think I just need help to do that right now.

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http://dramatica.com/questions/what-movies-or-books-have-been-made-with-dramatica1

That link won’t bring you from disbelief to faith, but there it is. I’ve heard it mentioned in one of the DUG videos that the first Star Trek reboot was written with Dramatica in mind.

Or it could be the mentality of someone who can see that there’s something there but can’t quite focus in on it yet.

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Speaking as a fellow-traveler, I’m not sure this is the most productive way to think about it.

Take Stephen King as an example. As I understand it, he is 100% a pantser – he doesn’t use outlines at all. He just drafts and redrafts until he get the story right, by intuition and practice. If I could write using a process like that, why on earth would I ever use Dramatica? But as much as I admire King and would love to write stories at that level, I’m not him, and just because it works for him, doesn’t mean it will work for me.

I think the much more important question is: why did you come to Dramatica in the first place? What creative problems were you trying to solve?

In my case,

  1. I know pantsing doesn’t work for me (been there, done that)
  2. Outlining requires some theory of structure
  3. More traditional 3-act structures can work, but have limitations (worked for my first book, not thereafter)
  4. Dramatica seems (for now) to be the most comprehensive and accurate model for story structure, and provides a tool, a theory, and a community that supports its practical application.

That said, you’re not the first person who’s wondered if Dramatica can be a muse-killer. Melanie herself was so concerned about that that she created a whole different system! (Storyweaver).

Someone also recommended the work of Holly Lisle (I think it was @jassnip?) as a complementary approach so I read a couple of her books and think they’re great. Both Holly Lisle and Melanie’s Storyweaver stuff are more focused on the right brained, dreaming-up material part of the process.

I am still trying to figure out if and how much integrating those approaches will help me.

But that’s neither here nor there. I believe the only thing that ultimately matters is to evaluate yourself as honestly as possible, figure out what you need (creatively, craft-wise, etc.) and move forward. If it doesn’t work you tweak the system or try something else, until things fall into place.

If becoming the next Grisham were as easy buying a $120 piece of software there would be a lot more of them around.

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I’d say this is evidence that Dramatica isn’t very popular among novelists, not that it’s not helpful. Success on the level of King/Patterson/Grisham is extremely rare, so multiply that by the small percentage of novelists who’ve taken the time to study and use Dramatica properly, and you arrive at a low likelihood that any of them use it. (Plus, once you’re capable of writing bestsellers without Dramatica, it’s unlikely you’ll bother taking the time to learn such a complex theory.)

But there are at least a couple of very successful novelists on this very forum using Dramatica. @pattyloof is a bestselling author. And this post by bestselling Hugo-nominated novelist Sebastien de Castell is really great:

Perhaps a better way to evaluate Dramatica would be, ask yourself if you feel it’s helping you make your stories better. Does it help you to fill in gaps or correct things that don’t feel right?

I agree it’s not easy to apply Dramatica properly to the writing process. Sometimes I think using the entire storyform (all the story points) might be trying to do too much consciously, when a lot of that stuff is better handled subconsciously, at least for some writers. However, I do think having a strong grasp of the four throughlines would be helpful for almost anyone.

I wonder if you could clarify your question around what part you need help with “believing”. Do you already believe that the analysis side of Dramatica works, and just need help accepting whether it can be applied to the writing process?

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At the very beginning, They ran it by some famous person, who jumped back in shock after trying their software, exclaiming, “This is for people without talent!” (So I was told by someone there at the time.)

I appreciate it keeps me in the writing mood, even though I haven’t gotten to it, yet. I have a BA in psych and what I did pick up is that different brains work differently, at times.

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I second everything said so far.

Hardly. It’s a frequent mentality of the average human being – something isn’t working, so do it bigger, stronger, faster. Sometimes that fixes it, sometimes it doesn’t.

I’m not sure how exactly one could flush it all away, even if you tried, because studying Dramatica has the sneaky side effect of internalizing it. Right away, in my own work or in others, I see absent IC’s, MC’s, throughlines, acts, issues and I can conceptualize how much better they would be if those aspects were present.

I honestly don’t get this, because before learning about Dramatica, I had to rely on pop-story theories from schools, blogs, coworkers, and miscellaneous bits of advice that don’t jive, and when I’d satisfy one criteria it would violate another, etc etc. Talk about crippling. I just wrote endless notes, constantly changing what I wanted to write, reconceptualizing it from the ground up with every new wave of popular consensus in the biz.

But with Dramatica, I have confidence. I wrote my first complete screenplay draft last year, something I never would have done before. Yes, I’m rewriting scads of it, but with Dramatica, I understand the changes I’m making and why I’m making them. In fact in the rewrite Dramatica is even better – you bounce your old ideas off the story points and suddenly scenarios, avenues, and conflicts you hadn’t even considered are filling your mind and now you have to figure out how they’ll all fit in or which ones to cut out, etc etc.

tl;dr - just stick with it. You may have to figure out a process in how you apply or work with it (write from the muse first then revise with Dramatica, or work out a storyform in advance) but the way it changes how you see the narrative world is indispensable, and that will find its way into your writing.

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I believe the analysis part of Dramatica is fine. But, how many storywriters ever sit down and think

“Okay, my Relationship Signpost 1 is “Playing a Role.” I need illustrations for Setup = Fate, Revelation = Prediction, Conflict = Interdiction, and Aftermath = Destiny.”?

Honestly I don’t think people do that - at least not in their very first draft / outline, unless they are perfectionists.

I’m just going to talk about my case here : when writing with Dramatica in mind, I only take into account the skeleton of the storyform, from the four throughlines down to the element level. And I use signposts to get ideas for the order of events. I usually don’t write objective characters the way Dramatica suggest because I don’t feel like it, neither do I worry about PRCO. It’s not good from a Dramatica standpoint, but it’s good for my writing process.

When I first studied Dramatica, I wondered how the heck I was supposed to fit all of these concepts into one work. I tried to go back to the 3 acts structure, but it simply didn’t work anymore for me - and like you, I was wondering if it weren’t a bit of a cultish thinking. But I felt something there, something that could help me write better stories. So I stuck with it - for the most part at least, as I told you I choose to not use it perfectly.

Dramatica gives you tool to write a complete story, according to the theory. Using all of its concepts will help you create a perfect argument, but it won’t help you actually create a good piece of fiction if your muse is bogged down in the process. Writers write with Dramatica in mind in their own way : different perspectives, a force of influence, steadfast characters, a central relationship reflecting the plot… Some just go deeper once they know the theory. It’s up to you to figure out how deep you feel you should go ! And it’s not wasted time or work either, because you can always use it later on when you get more experienced.

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This is what I do as well. I don’t even think of it as using Dramatica to write, though. I think of it as using Dramatica to build the structure. Once I have a structure in place that I like, I start adding flesh to the skeleton by writing my story with the outline in front of me. That outline helps me make sure I don’t go off the rails halfway through an idea and start chasing a whole other story and it makes sure I don’t have to sit and wonder what happens next and feel like i’ve written myself into a corner I can’t get out of. I already have the shape of the story described in my outline so writing the story can be fun and organic even though I’m still sort of tracing over the outline I already have.

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I know two writers who absolutely could not write a functioning scene until they went through and used PRCO/TKAD to develop the intuition that many take for granted. If a scene falls flat it’s ALWAYS because it’s a bunch of Fixed Attitude beats or Activity beats.

For some people it’s necessary as they develop the skills to write great stories.

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Is Sebastien deCastell (@decastell ) not notable?! Have you not read any of his books or read any reviews of his books? For that matter, have you ever used the search feature here on the boards, or do you just use it as a place to work out your own skepticism?

Do you believe Sabastien is on the same level as someone truly notable like King, Patterson, or Grisham?

Since my name got dropped on this thread, I thought I should show up with my two cents. I’ll start with a conclusion I came to a while back about everything to do with writing that isn’t sitting down and putting pen to paper: All writing advice is true, and all writing advice is bullshit.

Hero’s Journey? Makes perfect sense – follow that and you get a story with an arc and a satisfying conclusion. Save the Cat? Even better: you’ll have get your heroic journey and pacing that works for the audience. Dramatica? Who wouldn’t want a story that produces a deep sense of meaning in the audience when they reach the end. It’s all good. It’s all true.

Unfortunately, it’s all bullshit as well, because none of it works if all you’re bringing to the table is the method/theory/technique itself.

On its own, the Hero’s Journey produces the worst kind of formulaic wish-fullfilment crap. Save The Cat? The same crap, only this time you bothered to have the alpha-male stock trader hand a homeless person a fiver and a warm coat. Dramatica? You get a very reasoned, complete argument within a story that just happens to be boring as hell.

Stephen King talks a lot about going into the basement where the bully boys live – the mean, nasty, angry, uncivilized parts of your psyche – and letting them do the talking. He’s probably right. When other writers often talk about “finding ideas everywhere” as if reading an article in the newspaper suddenly gives them the basis of a book, I always suspect they read the article and it touches something inside them that they’re not comfortable talking about and that, at it’s core, delivers creative tension. Without creative tension, without summoning up some of the deep parts of yourself that, for the most part, you don’t want to ever talk to anyone else about, you’ve just got the illusion of structure.

This doesn’t mean that techniques, methods, and models can’t be worthwhile, it’s just that their only utility is in asking you questions. Here’s a simple example with each of the models I’ve mentioned:

Hero’s Journey: What stops your main character from jumping into the mystery/fantasy/romance/whatever right from the start? (a.k.a. “Refusal of the Call”) Because if they do jump right in, then the audience is going to find your story unbelievable. They know that if given the chance to jump out of a plane, most of them would chicken out and they want to see your character chicken out, too, for a while. Then they want to see something that would get them to take that leap.

Save The Cat: What in your story is going to immediately make us sympathize with your main character? (a.k.a. “Save The Cat”). Because if you don’t give us a reason to sympathize with them early on, we’re not going to invest in their story.

Dramatica: How are you going to get the audience to invest in very different perspectives on the subject of your story (a.k.a. The Four Throughlines)? Because without that, it’s going to feel like there’s no real tension within your story’s themes. If all we see is your main character looking at it from their perspective, never having that seriously challenged, then the story is going to feel trite.

All of that stuff is great, but none of it has any value as a novelist until you’ve got two other things in place: the ability to write good prose, and the willingness to reach inside yourself, to venture into that cave of things you spend most of your life trying not to think about, and let them whisper in your ear.

A “pantser” is someone who can write good prose and listens to the voices in their heads (or the muse or whatever other nonsense name we want to give the willingness to dig deep for creative tension) and then just writes and sees where the sentences lead them. A “plotter” is someone who can write good prose and listens to the voices in their heads and then uses a structure to ask those voices questions before putting pen to paper (or during, or after, or whatever.)

What makes Dramatica different from the Hero’s Journey or Save The Cat is not that one “works” and the other doesn’t, but that Dramatica asks you far more questions, and those questions are much more complex because it’s never really one question (like “what’s your save the cat moment going to be”) but four questions (“how will you address each of these quads at this level of your story”). Those questions can spur you into finding unique and deeply meaningful beats in your story. Or, they can confuse the hell out of you and make you wonder if you should give up writing all together. When the former happens, smile and write your scene. When the latter happens, stand up and shout, “fuck you, Dramatica!” and then sit down and write a scene that has nothing to do with anything Dramatica asked you or suggested. Half the time you’ll find the scene you write then just happens to fit perfectly with Dramatica’s bizarre terminologically-autistic element and you’ll say, “oh, so maybe that’s what ‘non-accurate’ means.”

Here’s one thing I’ve learned from writing novels for a living the past few years – which is absolutely true, but may also be bullshit to someone else: the real story is the one about the writer who’s struggling to finish a book, whose courage is failing, whose every effort seems to come to naught, who flounders about begging the gods – imaginary or software-based – for help, only to ultimately find him or herself alone again, in front of the keyboard, with the demons of failure eagerly whispering in both ears. You’re the one on the journey, and now you’ve got to get to the end or suffer the consequences. The book? The screenplay? No matter how important they are, they’re just artifacts of that journey. If you face each challenge along the way with as much daring as you can muster, you’ll create a work of art you can be proud of.

You mentioned not wanting to be a cult member (which sometimes feels like a rational fear when you see people using Dramatica to analyze people who post things on the forum as though labelling them a name from an element in the model was any different than just calling them a sissy). But the simple truth is that Dramatica’s job isn’t to make you a better writer; becoming a better writer may be a side-effect of using Dramatica, but the software itself never asks any questions about you as a writer. It only asks questions about what you want to write about, and then, like an irritating psych major, starts interrogating you about whether you’ve really looked at it from all sides, using buzz words that make you want to strangle them. The worst part about that psych major? Once you let go of how much their pompous, self-aggrandizing questions frustrated you, you realize they were probably right.

So, screw you Dramatica! I’m going to go write a scene that has nothing to do with “disbelief” but will instead be about a detective who refuses to go along with with her superiors insistence that her confidential informant is a worthless junky.

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Thank you.
I’m going to print that out and stash it under my pillow so that, when I’m laying awake at night, trying to figure out whether something belongs in the RS or IC through line or whether a character gaining some piece of information by solving a mystery counts as Doing, Obtaining, Gathering Information, or Understanding, I can whip your comment out and get some sleep so my subconscious can work on my story.

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Absolutely. Because I understand the difference between brand marketing and great storytelling.

I couldn’t care less how many books someone sells or what critics say, I care if it’s a great story. And Sebastien’s novels are hard to put down. You should try one.

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If you’re looking for a one-stop system that will turn you into a popular, wealthy author, I think you will be disappointed by the search.

Yes, there is some correlation among “good story,” “critical success,” and “best seller,” but it’s not absolute. Lots of factors, many beyond their control, made those authors as “successful” as they are, however you’re defining the word. Even when they write duds, their fans forgive and forget and buy what’s next anyway. They’ve become brands, making a separate narrative between them and their audiences beyond their actual product (something I imagine you actually could plot out with Dramatica :slight_smile:).

But if you have something meaningful you want to share with the world, Dramatica is the tool that best explores how to convey it to your potential audience. That may lead to popularity and financial success…or maybe not.

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And as far as irrational fears of being a member of a cult or equating being labeled a skeptic with “being called a sissy”—your post was specifically targeted at your “faith” in Dramatica, rather than some specific area of the theory or Storypoint.

Your evidence for not believing was your belief in this idea of “notable” Authors—faith that King or Patterson are somehow better than other Authors.

Besides listing out once again all the actual evidence of writers actually using it to write actual published material, all we can do is address the skepticism—because it’s just a conversation about faith.

Posts like this are counter-productive. It’s like going on a BMW forum and saying that, while you enjoy driving one, you can’t possibly buy into the idea of a BMW being a well built car.

And so, what you do is post in the Manufacturing section of the BMW forum and are somehow surprised that an entire community built around BMWs wouldnt be completely annoyed with behavior bordering on “trolling” and somehow explain to you how well-built they are.

You drove the car didn’t you?

Honestly, the worse part of Dramatica is @jhull. He can’t even have a disagreement (or even a -potential- disagreement since I clearly stated that I was looking for reasons to continue believing) without making things personal.

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Sorry, that was inappropriate.
It just pisses me off when people want to make something personal when it has no need to be so. EVERYBODY else in this discussion was able to have a constructive contribution.

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Hi @YellowSuspenders Hold on. Be strong. Writing is a craft. The journey is long and arduous. Everyone learns differently. Just as @decastell said, in this journey every form of help is welcome.
Where Dramatica shines though, is in it’s ability to steer you into a very unique way of thinking. Which would serve you well in years to come.
One of my favourite authors ever- Patrick Rothfuss - said in the acknowledgment of his masterpiece -The Name of the Wind - that if you must do something. You should take your time and do it right.

Pace yourself. You are building a career , not just a single book. To become a legend, you must be a scrub first. Own it!

This is just what motivates me in my journey to become the legend.

Journey before Destination - Knights radiant ( Storm light archive by Brandon Sanderson )

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