Here’s an interesting bit from Melanie that I found here.
"In discussing developing throughines with a student, I suggested the following advice, which I think is nicely on point:
When you are creating a story, there is no right or wrong choice for how you put together the throughlines. In fact, you should not be trying to analyze your story idea to see what the throughlines are, but you should be deciding what you want them to be."
If you have a Change character with a Good Judgment, you should really be able to feel how the Solution element works (since Change/Good means he embraces the Solution and that’s a Good thing for him personally). It’s the thing that once embraced, solves his issues! Out of the examples you wrote, I could feel that mostly with the last one (Solution of Uncontrolled), but the second one seemed okay too.
Just wondering, why didn’t you try Problem: Control and Response: Conscience? Since abstaining from things for fear of the consequences could be his response to the lure of a normal life, which he sees as tempting but too risky. Not sure if that jives with you.
Do you see him as having a chip on his shoulder, or a hole in his heart? Does he need to cast away something inherent in him, some vital piece of him, in order to solve his problems? Or does he need to gain some new trait or conceive some new way of being, to fill a hole that exists deep within him?
Everything in Dramatica (except, I guess, the Audience Appreciations) is from the Author’s perspective, the Author’s intent. So is MC Issue is definitely what you see as the thing causing his personal issues (at the Issue level of magnification – zoom out and you’ll see Domain & Concern, zoom in and you’ll see Problem).
Not to say the MC doesn’t notice or see his Issue as a source of trouble, I think that is up to the particular story. But generally the Symptom will get most of his attention.
As far as Issue and Counterpoint and comparing them and which wins, I wouldn’t worry about it. Just focus more on the Issue, as that’s the real source of conflict, and throw the counterpoint in there sometimes – could be a good thing, a bad thing, whatever. I don’t even think you have to try to compare them; just by being present in the MC throughline it will naturally be compared. In fact trying to compare them or decide which “wins” might make it too heavy-handed. (Note: when you get to your final storyform, the same Variation as counterpoint might come up as a Unique Ability / Critical Flaw / Catalyst / Inhibitor, so you might get to use it for something else too.)
Note a Symptom of Conscience could also be conscience coming from someone else. Like he feels like other people are always trying to get him to do the right thing, and that really bugs him because they don’t know what it’s like having to live with his problems – in fact, when they try to control him like that it just makes him want to give in to his compulsions.
I could say that he must stop giving in to compulsions and trying to contol, or start doing things in spite of fears, but my instinct is Stop. If the “hole in the heart” description is meant to evoke a sad character looking to fill an emptiness and chip on the shoulder, an angry character with, well, a chip on his shoulder, then I picture hole in the heart. I don’t know if that was the intent of those descriptions. Problem: Control, Symptom: Temptation gives me Start.
I got confused since the program says “Main Characters…have a point of view toward the world around them. This point of view is described by their thematic focus.” I thought MC Symptom was from MC’s POV in the case of a Change character.
I purposely left out which of those descriptions was Start and which was Stop, to get try and get you to think about them separately from how they impact the storyform. The “hole in the heart” is a shorthand for Start, and “chip on the shoulder” is a shorthand for Stop, though I think there are some cases where they’re not totally accurate. (I don’t think a chip on the shoulder is always an angry character.) The idea of the Stop character needing to lose or give up a trait and the Start character needing to gain a trait is more accurate, but a bit harder to picture.
I like the way you wrote “a sad character looking to fill an emptiness”. Those were your words, speaking about this character, and that’s interesting.
The MC Symptom is definitely from the MC’s point of view. Symptom is a story point that’s from the characters’ point of view (what he thinks the problem is, what he focuses on), as well as the Author’s (I’ve got this character that thinks X is a big problem so he responds with Y).
Regarding the Issue being about the Main Character’s point of view, I think what that’s saying is that all Main Characters have a problematic worldview, and that the MC Issue (their thematic focus) best illustrates that worldview. I still think it should be a source of conflict, because their worldview has to be a source of conflict for there to be pressure to change. It’s still Author’s Intent because it’s what you think their worldview is and how that causes problems for them. Anyway, this is all just theory talk because what you wrote for Issue of Responsibility above seems perfect!!
I get confused since Temptation and Conscience start with having an immediate desire or benefit, and the “struggle” (difference?) between them is, according to the program, “our Faith and Disbelief in consequences.” So, if MC desires a normal life, I’d think that’s only a problem if he believes in bad consequences (which he’ll think up), which I would think of as a Symptom of Conscience, despite all the Temptation gists about being lured, so maybe the urge to act vs. abstain is as important as believe in consequences? I don’t know if that’s getting too pedantic, even for Dramatica.
You lost me a bit there, but if you want to say he thinks the lure or temptation of something is a problem, that works perfectly well for a Symptom of Temptation. It could be a temptation he gives in to, or one he feels but resists – he would see either as a problem and focus his attention there.
I read that the Problem causes the Symptom. I can easily say that wanting to Control outcomes to avoid suffering causes his Conscience to act up and warn him, but I guess I could also say that the urge to Control his feelings makes him want to take charge of his life and give in to the Temptation to take risks on new things, until he listens to his Conscience talk him out of it.
I suppose next would be to pick the OS and RS Domains since the order in which I assign Temptation and Conscience as Symptom and Response changes whether I get
OS: Situation, Future, Preconceptions; RS: Fixed Attitude, Innermost Desires, Denial
or
OS: Fixed Attitude, Innermost, Hope; RS: Situation, Future, Delay
which is a way bigger difference than the order of Symptom and Response.
I’ve got a basic OS, but I can argue for some things belonging under Situation, and others Fixed Attitude. Characters end up in situations, like taking care of a senile relative with a failing business, but if that character didn’t care about her and how terrible it feels to lose family, then he could (if he was that cold-hearted, which he’s not) move out. The relative would be in huge Situation trouble, but the ex-caretaker wouldn’t (unless maybe there’s some legal issues with that). I see MC and IC trying to help with care taking, business fixing, and maybe fixing relationships, but that stuff would be motivated by their personal “quests,” so I don’t know if that’s bad. Another may need money for repairs, which is pure Situation.
I’m not crazy about getting an OS Issue of Hope. I can’t see realistic hopes being a problem. If anything, I’d say that Dream’s unrealistic expectations would be a problem, with characters learning to focus on small realistic goals (Hope) in the end.
For the potential OS Issue of Hope (vs. Dream), have you considered lack of hope, hopelessness, etc. being a problem?
Also, wondering what you think of Denial as the OS Issue. I kind of like how Help is in that quad, because of how you mentioned caretaking, etc. The counterpoint of Closure also seems to fit. (I realize that because you have a Change character, if you pick Denial as OS Issue you can’t have Control as the MC Problem, but you had some other options there I think.)
Finally, going back up to the bigger question of Overall Story in Situation vs. Fixed Attitude … here are my thoughts:
Situation from @jhull and others is pretty demanding – if characters could leave the situation, that’s not a stuck situation. (I sometimes find that hard because I’m not sure why the cops in The Fugitive can’t leave, quit their jobs or whatever, but I’m still learning.)Situation is about who the people are, externally. Like say everyone is in the situation of Being Small-Towners – yes they can leave the small town, but they’re still stuck being small-towners. You might even have City-Dwellers visiting or staying in the town, who are defined by that situation (Being City-Dwellers). This kind of OS verges on one of the internal domains, so it has to be handled right to be external.Anyway, all that to say is, I can see why you’re having trouble determining the OS Domain. Maybe instead of those litmus tests you can just take a step back, relax, and ask yourself what sort of story you want to tell. Do you want to tell a story where the problems stem from something external (in the universe around them), or internal (in their minds)? Which is the real source of trouble, in the story you want to tell?
(I think I could hazard a pretty good guess, based on other stuff in this thread, but it’s your story!)
I suppose Fixed Attitude works best for OS, as long as I can have the characters doing a bunch of stuff like save the business. I could chalk up the basic problems to stubbornness since I think all the characters have some issues with that. I like Denial better than Hope, although I do think about themes of Hope (realistic expectations, taking baby steps towards a large goal) being better than Dream (unrealistic expectations).
Can Dream have anything to do with actual dreams? I thought it was about desired futures, but find some of the gists ambiguous, like there’s one about a nightmare, but sleeping dreams don’t seem related to aspiration dreams.
I wonder if choosing between Linear and Holistic PS would help, but I can’t tell if jumping from “there’s a smudge on that cup” to “everyone dies!” is thinking of the big picture or not. However, it does lead in a line from smudge to germs to illness to death.
I was thinking Fixed Attitude (Mind) also, because of what you wrote before about peace of mind, the human condition and taking the first of many steps into the sunlight. It seemed like you weren’t only talking about the MC then.
Dream can definitely have to do with sleeping dreams – any sleeping dream which is not utterly impossible fits the definition of Dream, and even one that is impossible could be inspiration for a “desired future that does not fall within reasonable expectations”. A nightmare, especially the type that would cause conflict (and thus fit a Dramatica story point) absolutely fits Dream – since the conflict of a nightmare is the horror of something unreasonable but still imaginable. If you’re wondering about the “desired future” part of it, well, maybe some dark part of you buried deep inside actually likes that nightmare – otherwise where did it come from?
I would guess Linear for PS Style, since as you said his anxious ideas go in a line. But you can leave that until later, as it doesn’t affect that much in the storyform.
I agree with @mlucas that sleeping dreams work as well as aspirations. Since Dramatica is about a story mind and not about a necessarily realistic interpretation of reality, I think a sleeping dream and an aspiration can function the same within the story. Just make sure that the dream or nightmare does fulfill the proper role in your story form and it should be fine, I think.
I was wondering what PS Style you would choose as well. I didn’t know if this disorder was causing a problem that the MC would go through a linear set of steps to solve, like washing hands and avoiding cracks to save lives, or if the disorder would cause the MC to see a smudge as such a large imbalance that they feared it would cause some big tragedy. And i sure don’t know how to balance out a smudge to prevent tragedy.
Note there is more about Dream vs. Hope from Melanie here: http://storymind.com/blog/hopes-and-dreams/
I like that, which gives me an OS and IC Symptom of Hinder and Response of Help, which works, but I wonder if having the MC Problem be Temptation is like putting the cart before the horse since I’d think Uncontrolled anxiety would cause the Symptom of being Tempted to stop it as fast as possible with compulsions, which would cause more Uncontrolled feelings then Temptation, and so on, not the other way around.
I wanted IC to have a Unique Ability of Approach (I’ve written MC being impressed by IC just recklessly doing things instead of getting intimidated), not Morality, so that choice gave me a PS of Holistic. I find Holistic kind of confusing and I don’t know how and when to show it. I wish there was an example of the same problem solved in each PS, rather than different examples for each one. I could see that balancing aspect in regards to a mental compulsion-- MC gets a slew of bad thoughts and tries to balance or counter them by thinking good thoughts.
Just a sanity check here. Is it at all possible we got the MC Throughline wrong, and it’s actually the MC who has the stuck mindset? and the stuff you wrote about the MC’s responsibilities might actually be part of the OS throughline (or partly in both OS and MC throughlines)?
I’m asking because of a couple things I noticed:
I wouldn’t say any of that is a smoking gun of OS being Manipulation, but it might mean you shouldn’t rule it out.
I wouldn’t get too hung up on a particular Unique Ability yet – it may turn out what you think, or you may find Dramatica highlights something you never considered, which gives you a way to make your story richer. You might even find something like the MC being impressed by the IC’s recklessness actually fits in perfectly somewhere else. e.g. I thought Rationalization was perfect for my IC Critical Flaw, but when Jim fixed my PS Style, it ended up as RS Inhibitor instead. I kind of scratched my head at that, my now that I’m deep into encoding my RS I can see how Rationalization works perfectly to kind of put their issues to the side temporarily, slowing down their approach to a resolution. (because they are able to make excuses for the way they’re behaving in the relationship)
Regarding examples of Holistic, here are some that might help:
It’s possible. Manipulation covers all kinds of good stuff I want in OS-- dysfunctional relationships, persuading, OCD, dementia, envy, etc. I could fill up that side section with gists already in the program.
I wonder if I can keep Changing One’s Nature. When considering that Domain for OS, I also considered Playing a Role (since there are characters who don’t want to lose roles, like the relative who doesn’t want to stop being manager and I want to put some acting/performing in there, but I like Becoming better) or Developing a Plan since they would need to figure out how to save the business and fix relationships (don’t characters in all stories have to plan to reach their goals? What makes this Concern special?), but when I mess around with my story form, I keep coming back to Becoming and the Responsibility quad-- not sure if I should trust the instinct or if that means I’m afraid to try something less familiar. The stuff under Developing a Plan is more abstract, less exciting to me (except for Ability vs Desire, which is a good conflict in the story).
Ideally, I’d say:
OS: Manipulation, Changing One’s Nature, Responsibility, sort out Control/Uncontrolled and Temptation/Conscience later
MC: Fixed Attitude (he does have a problem with low worth), Innermost Desires, Denial, sort out Temptation/Conscience and Hinder/Help later
IC: Situation: Situation, Future, Preconception. I’m not sure how situation works here, although him being a (comparatively) normal person and being the one to find MC has influenced MC. MC relies on him. I don’t know if I need something more concrete. I like Hinder/Help, Control/Uncontrolled. IC does challenge MC’s Preconceptions about what will happen in the Future.
RS: Activity, Obtaining, Morality. They do a lot of stuff together and I like Morality vs. Self-Interest in their relationship. I’d thought Activity would’ve gone under IC for being something that IC pushes on MC because he wants to Obtain benefits from it, but I guess it involves both of them if MC flakes out due to his fears.
I also considered:
OS: Playing a Role
MC: Impulsive Responses (Worry/Confidence, Value/Worth are relevant)
IC: How Things Are Changing (he influences MC in matters of Threat/Security. He also learns that if just diving in to face a fear doesn’t work, which is an incident that makes his steadfastness waver, taking small steps to expose himself to it can work and he passes that on to MC)
RS: Doing
OS: Developing a Plan (Sense of Self and Circumstances seem relevant)
MC: Memories (he’s haunted by past regret and failure)
IC: The Past (he deals in fixing up old stuff, seeing the worth in “junk,” including MC. He’s also affecting MC’s predictions of how his life and the future may go)
RS: Understanding (Interpretation and Conditioning seem relevant)
I wonder if MC could be in Situation and IC affects his Fixed Attitude. He’s in a rough situation and wants to fix it, but I figured his mental problems were worse (and one situation could possibly be resolved if not for someone else refusing to participate with good reason, but couldn’t one character’s internal issue be another’s Situation?) so I used internal Domains. I don’t know if Do-er works. I guess acting on an external compulsion and/or hiding might be Doing, but a lot of times he thinks a lot, trying to figure out what to do before acting.
EDIT:
Re-read the Collateral article. I could say that the OS characters are stuck in a dysfunctional rut (the caretaker and relative really need their relationship changed, but it only became a problem when her condition changed her thinking to make her paranoid), but MC’s thinking is stuck. Sure, a stream of thoughts is something that needs to be halted, but those thoughts are composed of the same stuck cognitive distortions (like black and white thinking or focusing on the negative, but aren’t those ways of thinking, which is Manipulation?) and beliefs.
I’d say that’s a very good sign!
Yes but don’t forget that Developing a Plan (Conceptualizing) can also show up as one or more of Requirements, Benchmark, Prerequisites, Preconditions, Consequences, or Dividends… and will definitely show up as a Signpost in one of the throughlines. Also, sometimes planning might be in the story but the planning itself might not be a source of conflict so not part of the storyform.
When it comes to OS Concern, because it’s the Overall Story Concern, it really affects the feel of the whole story. It will be a source of conflict, all of the characters will be concerned with it or doing it etc. Think of Being John Malkovich – everybody is literally concerned with Being John Malkovich, even John Malkovich himself!
Or in the film A Man For All Seasons, which you can read the group online analysis for, everyone is trying to get others to Conceive something. The whole movie is basically people going “I want you to conceive this” “well no, why don’t you conceive this instead” “but it’s inconceivable that you won’t take the oath; I can’t conceive of any reason you won’t take it other than you’re a traitor” “this is why I won’t take it, can’t you conceive that?”. And it’s awesome!
So what I’m really trying to say is, when you order up the OS Concern, you’re not asking for a side dish, it’s your main course. An OS of Playing a Role will have a whole bunch of problematic pretending / conning / behaving / Being / etc. and something along those lines will be the Goal too. An OS of Developing a Plan will have a whole bunch of problematic planning / scheming / figuring out how to X / etc. Same with Conceiving. Or Becoming (growing up, dying, evolving, devolving, transforming, changing one’s nature, being changed). The only thing with Becoming is that it’s not as easy to Become as it is to plan or pretend, so often you see them trying to become, or in the process of Becoming.
NOTE: in case it wasn’t clear all those list items should be separated by “and/or”!
Anyway, that thing you wrote before about peace of mind, the human condition and taking the first of many steps into the sunlight … it does feel like Becoming to me, like all the characters need to change their nature. But I could see Developing a Plan too, i.e. figuring out how things really work when you have these sorts of problems. What about the business they’re helping with, do they need to change the nature of it? Or do they just need to plan it better, figure out how to make it work?
If that Situation was suddenly fixed, like maybe he won the lottery, would his personal problems go away completely? I don’t get the sense that they would.
For the IC in Situation, that’s a lot easier than having OS in Situation. Is there something about him or his situation that causes him problems, that he can’t easily get out of? Even “being a normal person” could be a Situation if it was problematic for him.
Anyway, I could go on but rather than comment on every arrangement it might be better to see if we can rule some out first.
I like OS: Becoming, Responsibility.
I originally imagined that most of the business assets had been sold to pay for the owner’s care, but she kept forgetting, so seeing her missing property would add fuel to delusions that her caretaker is out to get her. Then I thought it’d be interesting if the business was still around and she was fighting someone else over running it and unintentionally screwing things up. Also, I want to get in ideas I had about performing, so I figured maybe I could use those in the form of putting on a show or something to drum up business. I don’t know what has gone wrong with the business. I’m more interested in the tension it causes and how I can use it as a platform for some other ideas.
It’s hard not to think of emotional things, like he was abandoned (Situation) in his backstory and wants fame to prove himself, but he wouldn’t have a problem if not for a grudge (Fixed Attitude?) over it. Having to take care of MC could cause problems. Another idea was that his home got wrecked and he needs money to repair it. He “rescues” old stuff like diaries and antique doorknobs (an interest in history seems like it’d go well with those Situation Signposts) and maybe he sells that stuff online, but his business is also failing. There are some parallels going on in my ideas-- not sure if good theme stuff or my brain is lazy and repetitive.
Cool. For the business it sounds like it’s somehow devolving and that’s causing tension. And they may want to stop it from dying, get it back on its feet, which is a source of further conflict. (Just wondering, if it’s a restaurant, have you considered them turning it into a dinner theatre?) Remember to keep this external stuff in the Manipulation domain, i.e. the true underlying source of tension is their conflicts over ways of thinking, but given the types of characters you have I don’t think that will be a problem.
For the IC in Situation, I love the idea of the wrecked home and being stuck without enough money to repair it. It’s possible that fixing the ruined home could be part of the OS too (transforming it into something better), though I wouldn’t worry about that when you’re thinking about / encoding the IC throughline.
The parallel ideas are good theme stuff for sure! I don’t think your muse can be lazy, you just have to develop the ideas afterwards so they are interestingly alike without being repetitive. But I think good structure will help here too, i.e. the same exact thing looks different from the different perspectives.
@SharkCat, i haven’t read everything since my last reply carefully yet, but have scanned through it, so forgive me if I’m repeating or missing something. But I see that you and @mlucas have decided your OS goes in Manipulation, which I agree with because of a lot of what is said in this thread. I probably should have said that before but I wasn’t really sure if you wanted to focus on the MCs fear or how that fear affected his behavior and hoped that my agreeing with you would help you feel good about going with what we came up with so you could pick a form get to work writing this thing! I hope I didn’t steer you wrong, but as I said many times I was trying to work through it too to help myself just as much.
Anyway, what I really wanted to say now is that I think maybe you can still use that work we did when thinking of the MC in manipulation. If you think about the type of events that would have happened when we were talking about the MC in Manipulation, those should now be how your main character fits into the OS vs how your main character fits into the MC through line. That’s kind of what I was talking about with that weird analogy about spaghetti and separating the noodles. Similarly, if you look at the RS vs how the MC or IC are meant to operate individually, hopefully you can see how to keep them separated and not have them bleed together, which was a concern I believe you mentioned early on. I’m not sure how much that helps but thought I’d mention it in case it did.
I had planned on writing out examples of an MC in an MC through line and the same character in the OS through line, and maybe doing the same with the RS and MC. But I’m not sure if you still need that help after working through your form with mlucas. I’m also not sure if come up with the best examples.
One thing I’m really understanding now, that I didn’t when I was newer to Dramatica, is this: All the work you do is useful, especially if it gets to the heart of your story.
Getting to the heart of your story is important because I’m not sure how useful it is to try to encode every last point like Unique Ability etc. when you’re still unsure of the Domains. But you can definitely just talk about your story and characters and explain them to others and that can help.
So, it may turn out we’re not even correct about OS being Manipulation – it certainly feels right but it shouldn’t be written in stone. But like you said, all the work @SharkCat is doing to illustrate the guts of his story is useful and most of it will belong in some throughline!