Rogue One, thoughts?

questions
#1

[spoilers]

Just saw Rogue One, which felt like…a misfire. Besides the stunning landscapes, set design, costume design, creature design, I felt trapped in a movie that had confusing story developments, confusing characters, and confusing character changes.

the argument between Jyn and Cassian was the only moment where i felt anything about these characters.

it felt like a tony gilroy touch to hint that the rebels are just as ruthless and violent as the empire, and that soldiers like Cassian have to just take orders even if he’s on the “good” side. It would have worked well if the original MC throughline of Jyn being really rebellious and difficult was maintained. She would have been a good steadfast character to show Cassian that it is vital to rebel even among the rebels. Could have been like The Insider, where russell crowe’s whistleblowing allows al pacino to see he has to whistleblow on his own CBS network to get the info out.

Also, it was a cool idea that the rebels are actually a patchwork of disagreeable factions, but this was barely explored. perhaps the group that Jyn and Cassian assemble could have had more internal disagreement. the only character expressing any conflict was K2S0, but why not Chirrut and Baze?

A parallel to this - krennic’s relationship to Tarkin, the disagreements among the empire; tarkin testing the death star on jedhi without any approval (vader seemed to want to cover this up). But again, the argument wasn’t a slam dunk. tarkin wasn’t punished for impulsively testing the death star. krennic wasn’t clearly given status and power back after consulting vader. and then, tarkin decides to fire the death star again on scarif (why? to destroy their email server archive?), potentially blowing the cover on the existence of the death star yet again.

Bodhi Rook’s character had a lot of potential, like an imperial soldier redemption story, maybe even better than Finn’s. There was a sadness to it that was touched upon. weird styling of his stringy hair and goggle accessories; you’d think an imperial pilot would have a more regimented haircut, like Finn in TFA. I did not understand why Saw Gerrera submitted him to the mind-reading slug thing. Wasn’t Bodhi well on his way to giving Saw the hologram of Galen? Why did Saw need to break Bodhi’s mind? simply to punish Bodhi having been born into imperial servitude?

Also felt like the movie didn’t really start for Jyn until she witnesses the hologram of Galen divulging his inner secret rebellion on the death star’s architecture, but this was like 40 or 50min into it…

overall, the story feels like the product of all the reported rewrites and reshoots midway into production.

how could it have been fixed? thoughts?

p.s. Rogue One made me realize that Star Wars is at this point, fundamentally closer to something like LOTR or GoT, i.e. a kind of medieval fantasy, NOT science fiction. In science fiction, there is fundamentally an exploration of changing relationship to being human, questioning what is sacred about human nature and relationships amidst technologies that intrude on those definitions. In Rogue One, no one communicates in ways different from the 1970s - every important high-ranking character is still physically traveling to other planets to take a meeting. the “upload” of the death star plans is written like its dial up modem, but in spirit is even more like telegraphing. All of this is the charm of Star Wars, but its interesting to see how continuing to make new Star Wars films in 2016 forces the filmmakers to stick with a world and mythology rooted in 20th century relationship to communication and technology. the fuzzy hologram recordings and starships are analogies to VHS and sea-battleships more than to actual technological speculation. in sticking to a world made by lucas, star wars becomes more like a LOTR fantasy world, hermetically sealed from being science fiction. One amazing thing about star wars that almost NO science fiction film ever manages: the pluralistic cohabitation of multiple species, people, and the diversity of cultures intermixing. Rogue One REALLY excelled at this aspect of the star wars universe.

1 Like
#2

I’ve seen Rogue One once and so these are my first impressions

SPOILERS

I really liked Rogue One and felt that it is 100% a Star Wars movie, whereas, The Force Awakens wasn’t. Even though I liked that movie as well, just not as much as this one.

The plot development seemed like a very logical progression of events. It did skip around a lot at the beginning but it was simple enough to understand what was happening.

While I do feel that the MC throughline was thin, the IC throughline had a little bit more going for it. The arcs were there and felt complete. Cassian’s change from rebel henchmen to rebel hero was a nice arc if being a little flimsy at times. The relationship felt resolved. Jyn’s throughline felt resolved.

One thing that will slow your narrative to a crawl is having all of your characters disagreeing over every decision made. You get 2-3 people with different POV’s say what they have to say, someone wins and you move on. Plus there are also sidekick characters that support what is happening no matter what. Maybe they could have done more with the disagreeable factions. I have a feeling it could have carried more weight but we got the gist of it, that the fear of going against the Empire is growing, even among the higher ranks.

Saw was given a flash drive and he wasn’t sure what was on it. Instead of opening it willy nilly (possibly giving away his location) he used the octo-alien to read his mind, to find out if Bodhi was lying.

I believe the Jyn’s story started when she was rescued from the prisoner escort. It was shortly after that she was given a mission and a personal goal.

Additional Thoughts:
Death Star destruction was amazing and far more realistic.
The space battles were epic.
I really liked how the force was used in this story.
I thought Vader’s scenes were great and they did him justice at the end.
K2SO was very funny multiple times.
This film clutched the ending. This felt like a complete film

#3

it’s strange that Cassian changes from rebel henchmen to a rebel hero, which I agree he does, when Jyn also changes from apathetic to empire (“not a problem if you don’t look up”) to trying to convince the rebel leadership about “fighting a rebellion based on hope”, a phrase/perspective she adopted from Cassian. Would have been more solid if Jyn was always a little rogue one, and the developments of the OS redirect her rebellious energy toward a larger cause (like a steadfast growth). Instead, I think they muddled her in the rewrites. The story doesn’t add up emotionally, which i think is a sign it doesn’t adds up from a Dramatica perspective either. In any case, I’m curious for a Rogue One breakdown/ how-to-fix-it? @jhull?

#4

I think I’m in the same boat. Star Wars will always appeal to me through sheer force of setting, but thinking critically about the plot, I’m not sure what to derive from it. What really was Jyn’s arc? What made her important as a character besides her connections to her “fathers?” How much would the story have changed if she hadn’t been in it at all? And what was the big climactic choice that led to success rather than failure? Giving the gun to K2S0? Cassian taking the shot so that Jyn could escape? I love how they ended the movie basically minutes before the start of Episode IV, but… yeah, despite cleaving to the Hero’s Journey to a T, I never really got much of a sense of story at all. :unamused:

#5

I’ve always felt like SW was a fantasy rather than sci fi. It’s much more about LOTR in space than technology.

I didn’t see much of a GAS in Rogue One, but there were some lines that felt tailor made from Dramatica. “Save the rebellion. Save the dream,” mixed with “Rebellions are built on hope” screams of a hope vs dreams thematic conflict, but I didn’t feel that theme expressed throughout. And then the part about taking a chance, and the next one and the next until we win or there are no more chances seems a clear way to tell the audience to expect an optionlock rather than a time lock.

I thought the story (or tale, I guess) was good on its own while adding to the OS and backstory of the original trilogy.

#6

Pretty sure this was to wipe out Krennic and any evidence that anyone other than Tarkin had anything to do with the Death Star.

Personally, I absolutely loved the film. Saw it twice on opening weekend and am trying to figure out ways to see it again this week. The last sequence was a 35 year dream come true.

That said - Rogue One is a tale, not a complete story. There were inklings of it between Jyn and Cassian, but as someone mentioned–this was likely something Gilroy, who is an amazing writer/director, tried to get in there but just couldn’t make it work out with everything else in there.

Was kind of confused as to the point of her Main Character Throughline - very distancing in that I wasn’t sure exactly what she was struggling with. Cassian was cool and had tons of potential, but got lost along the way.

I felt like character development stopped about 2/3 of the way through and then it was one epic battle with lots of cool old friends coming back into the picture. (Gold Leader!)

Either way - it was super fun and a great example of wonderful filmmaking without an effective narrative.

#7

Glad you’re talking about the film. I loved it. Some elements felt right on in terms of expressing themes. I was trying to figure out whether the MC was change or steadfast. That’s where her unclear concern comes into play. It seemed set up that she’d be fending for herself without a father figure. She makes one quip, I believe to Cassian, towards the climax that it was the first time someone (he) was there to help her. Was Cassian the IC? I’m guessing her father was part of her MC. The android seemed like a skeptic character. “Trust” and faith seemed important in this story’s OS. Even the android wanting to tag along, but the others not having faith he will be able to help them.

#8

Been holding off reading anything about Rogue One until I saw it. Woo hoo - just did!

Great visiting that universe again - though I did feel that it was quite weak on a few of the through lines.

Did notice a huge Save the Cat moment along with the Refusal of the Call - which made me groan a little. Was hoping that the story trajectory broke out of that mould quickly. Enjoyed it thoroughly though.

#9

There were a number of things that kept me from liking this as much as I wanted to, perhaps none bigger than the execution of the central premise: stealing the plans for the Death Star and, despite all the fanservice bits, the failure to capitalize on A New Hope’s beginning where Darth Vader tells Princess Leia “You are a traitor and a Rebel spy!”.

As a result, the film didn’t have any real espionage or caper flare to it and settled for some unlikely “intergalactic library/city hall” to barnstorm which, ironically, seemed to be condoning the early days of pirating on Napster and uploading/downloading files illegally. It’s just one of many head-scratching decisions that defied logic, logic in this case being one would think the place to acquire blueprints for a functioning Death Star would be, well, the Death Star itself. Everything about the location used felt forced (pun intended), right down to some force field opening above the planet that required yadda yadda yadda. I think the narrative could have been a tense thriller for the first half in acquiring the plans, then the last half where it’s about escaping with them which could have easily involved the same type of big, climatic battle with the ending as is.

The other bits, right from the start, included such things as Krennic’s arrival to bring Galen Erso to work on the Death Star. Sure, it looks cinematic with these Black Deathtroopers striding ominously forward with Krennic’s contrasting white cape fluttering in the wind, but I couldn’t help be reminded of human nature and wondering had these fellows stopped at the local mall, would they have parked three shopping plazas away and walked? Of course I’m being sarcastic, but it was one of those little things that made me say “Why?”, along with Galen’s wife’s death or Saw Gerrera’s inexplicable “I’m tired of running” and giving up bit. It just didn’t ring true and all seemed to aim for hollow/forced emotions (coincidently I found the whole rather emotionally uninvolving).

There were bits I did enjoy, particularly the decision handling the cast of characters, and overall didn’t find it bad at all per se, just something that fell short of its promise - especially with a lot of scenes cut from early trailers which gives some idea of how much tinkering went on (I’d really love to know how much Gilroy’s influence changed the film and where it stood prior.)

2 Likes
#10

I concur. The film felt flat for me. The dismal attempts at making me care about Jyn Erso felt forced. @JBarker has said the rest. Not a terrible movie, but not one I want to rewatch any time soon.

1 Like
#11

I think there probably was a good film in there but it’s mostly been edited out. I think what was released has a number of plots that feel inconsequential.

I think what I would have liked is a theme of coming together for the greater good, despite past grievances.

Saw Gerrera plays a very small part in the film, I would have liked to see him rejoin the rebellion at the end to help with the attack. Even better if it is his band that attacks Scarif with the Rebellion joining him later, despite their distaste at his tactics.

There could be growth for Bodhi too, who despite being tortured remains to see through what he started.

I saw a comment chain here that suggested Cassian should have killed Jyn’s father. The fall out of that could have fed into this theme too - despite wanting vengeance Jyn puts it aside and accepts Cassian’s help to get the plans.

#12

I enjoyed the film as is, but definitely felt like there were the ghosts of some old story lines in there.

I think I saw on imdb that an older draft had Saw Gerrera training Jyn Erso and that they may have actually filmed a scene where vader cuts off his legs. I definitely would have liked to see more of that story along with a more fleshed out theme.

#13

Wow. I agree with so much of this…but still loved it!

1 Like
#14

Save the Rebellion…Save the Dream! Your podcasts are the best Jim!

1 Like
#15

Just saw it. Definitely fell flat for me, as others have said.

I didn’t dislike it, it was fun, but I never really connected with it. There were too many moments where I was like “Whoa look at this awesome battle, X-Wings, Y-Wings, Gold Leader – so why don’t I care? Why doesn’t it seem to matter?” Or they kept using the word hope but it didn’t seem to mean much, like much of the film it was just window dressing.

Probably my expectations were too high (expecting a complete story or at least a strong MC throughline). I did love the droid character though. He was awesome, funny, and perfectly Star Wars!

2 Likes
#16

Cora, really, really great thoughts in your opening post. I totally agree with the science fiction vs. space fantasy stuff you said, and I do love how they’ve tried to keep the technology (especially the displays) the same as 70s even though sometimes it makes you want to laugh (“Oh crap we only got the super-low-res Vic-20 version of the plans! These are useless!”). You’ve got a great feel for Star Wars and I’m saying that as someone with the last name of Lucas (no relation unfortunately) who grew up in the 80s! LOL

Go back in time and let a Dramatica Story Expert review the screenplay? I’m only half kidding; I definitely think a more complete story would’ve helped viewers like you and me connect to the story. I like a lot of your ideas about trying to make the different sub-plots and acts have some continuity in themes, and making the MC’s throughline and Steadfast Resolve a lot stronger. When they all died at the end I really should have cared more, and I think stronger subjective throughlines (MC, IC, RS) would have done that.

#17

Great points all. Recently read it’s basically a WW2 flick with all the outdated technology. The Star Wars world is more about morality than man’s relationship with tech.

#18

After seeing it twice, I believe Jyn’s dad is the steadfast IC. Jyn & Cassian are co-MC’s that change in sequence like dominoes falling.

Cassian’s co-MC change: clearly occurs when he doesn’t shoot Jyn’s dad & the bow on the package is when he tells Jyn he believes her before the big ending battle; motivated by influence mainly from Jyn (with some help from blind force-influenced guy).

Jyn’s co-MC change: less clear of a single change moment; could have occurred internally during the hologram message from dad; at the latest, when she rallies the troops at the rebel base; motivated by mom’s trust message to young Jyn, dad’s hologram message, & Saw’s pleas when she sees him again as an adult in Jedha.

My proposed story form is identical to Star Wars’ storyform. Trust goes both ways.

I dispute that it’s a tale. Sure, the storyform isn’t as fully developed as Lone Star or something grand, but I think it has much more of a developed storyform than a lot of examples on the site (e.g. Shrek, Ghostbusters, Philadelphia Experiment, Into the Blue). Rogue One doesn’t feel as anywhere near as incomplete as Taken or Jurassic Park.

#19

Or if the co-MC idea is too wacky (after all, Jyn & Cassian are pretty different), then perhaps it has a dynamic like The Verdict. The patient/family influenced Paul Newman’s change earlier, then that is followed by Paul Newman influencing Charlotte Rampling’s change later.

#20

You have me wanting to watch it again now. I don’t remember a lot of it at this point. Was there a scene that shows Jyn’s Judgment?