What do you think the childhood story is there to tell us? How do you think it informs us on what’s going on in the larger story?
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Obviously it provides the context for why Travers is the way that she is, so it functions as backstory for her character.
But the primary reason for it is clearly to show where the inspiration for Poppins and the Banks family came from, and to explain why she’s so unwilling to compromise with everyone else in the OS: it’s not only her creation, but her childhood, just with more fantastical elements added in.
I think that’s where it intersects. In fact, thinking about it, I think that’s the IC hand-off in action. I think it’s her father and Walt that share the same attitude focused on one thing: imagination. Some dialogue excerpts:
TRAVERS: We share a Celtic soul, you and I. This world is just an illusion, Ginty old girl. As long as we hold that thought dear, they can’t break us. Money, money, money. Don’t you buy into it Ginty! It’ll bite you on the bot! How did we end up here eh? Look at it. Barren. Breathless. Get as far away from this place as possible my love. Find yourself a patch of green.
(he sighs)
It’s a chimera you know? The world, the bank, you and I, Mr Randolph- whackety-whack-Belhatchett. All an illusion.
TRAVERS: Don’t you ever stop dreaming Ginty my love. You can be anyone you want to be. Anyone.
WALT: Give her to me, Mrs Travers. Trust me with your precious Mary Poppins. I won’t disappoint you. I swear that every time a person goes into a movie house - from Leicester to St Louis, they will see George Banks being saved. They will love him and his kids, they will weep for his cares, and wring their hands when he loses his job. And when he flies that kite, oh! They will rejoice, they will sing. In every movie house, all over the world, in the eyes and the hearts of my kids, and other kids and their mothers and fathers for generations to come, George Banks will be honoured. George Banks will be redeemed. George Banks and all he stands for will be saved. Maybe not in life, but in imagination. Because that’s what we storytellers do. We restore order with imagination. We instill hope again and again and again. Trust me, Mrs Travers. Let me prove it to you. I give you my word.
I’m not sure if that’s all within the same storyform (in which Pamela ultimately changes her mind, accepts the imagination/fantasy Walt represents and signs over the rights/ends up appreciating – to some extent – what he does) or if the Ginty stuff is a different storyform that has similarities to this one. But there’s definitely an influence shared between those two characters that I have somehow only just noticed.
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This is what I got from it. That it provides the justification for much of the OS.
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Very interesting insights! Having both Walt and Pam’s father sharing that same perspective makes sense. With that in mind, it sounds like we have some good support for an IC Domain of Mind, which therefore helps to support an MC Domain of Universe, as mentioned earlier.
So, here’s what we have so far (assuming we all agree):
Resolve: Change (Pam goes from unceasingly keeping her stories from being adapted to allowing Disney to make the film.)
Approach: Doer (Pam “changing the external to suit herself,” including all of her demands.)
OS Domain: Psychology (The “endless stream of dysfunction, with both sides fighting for their ideas to be heard.”)
MC Domain: Universe (Pamela is running out of money, and can only get out of that by selling the rights to her stories.)
IC Domain: Mind (Travers’s alcoholism, and he and Walt’s fixation on imagination.)
RS Domain: Physics (Pamela and Ralph’s relationship turns from a cold professional one to a close friendship through all the talking and other things they do together.)
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I agree with all of that, for sure.
I’m not sure if you want to do the dynamics next, but I have (some) ideas on the plot dynamics:
Driver: I’m always unsure on this but my instinct says it’s a Decision story, since it starts with the decision to meet Disney and ends with her decision to grant the rights. Also, as a Do-er, she’d be an unwilling fish-out-of-water-style participant and that certainly lines up with her.
Limit: Optionlock (the steps that must be taken to produce the film – getting Travers onboard; writing the music; getting the script in shape, etc.
Outcome: Success (the Poppins film is completed)
Judgment: I’m fairly confident this is a Good ending for her, since she’s moved to tears during the screening (and she sees the connections between the movie and her own childhood).
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Let me say that in my description, I was trying to take it a bit further, or a bit deeper, than to just say “they grow to be friends over driving around”. I didn’t explain what I was going for particularly well, and I think most of what I was looking at would probably end up getting described in the PLOT anyway. That said, I now think it probably does work just fine to say that the GENRE of their relationship is from driving around.
I was hoping to hear a little more about this. How does Walt’s Mindset influence others? Or how does Walt influence the Mindset of others? Is there something more to be said about that, or no?
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I’d have to rewatch, but he definitely influences Travers at least. The excerpt I put above is probably his strongest influence on anyone, where he convinces her to trust him with Poppins:
It’s that whole approach of ‘imagination brings order to chaos’ that influences her to say ‘enough’ and sign over the rights. Now that I know where the influence is, I’d have to rewatch to see if he influences anyone else but he definitely shares a perspective with her father regarding the power of imagination.
You could also argue that him taking Travers to Disneyland is another moment of attempted influence regarding the power of imagination – all the stuff about the tree they built and the carousel (“there’s a child in all of us”). But I think most of the IC is held by Travers’ dad in flashbacks, and Walt picks up the slack very occasionally in the present day sections.
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Ok, so he speaks about imagination and this pushes Pamela to sign over the rights. But where’s the conflict in that? How does the first person perspective of the story mind look to Walt to see how he is handling the conflict of being fixated on imagination? That’s what I’m trying to get at.
If we describe Walt’s story in a nutshell, can we do it in a way that includes a Fixed Mind with conflict? Like, if we said he was trying to fulfill his promise to his kids, could we show that that was a fixed mindset that led to conflict? Or could we say that Walt is experiencing conflict from dealing with a fixed mindset, like being fixed on buying a property that’s not for sale, or even buying a property that someone else is fixed on not selling?
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If I’m going to be really critical, that’s the one part of the storyform that seems underdeveloped. When I was looking for the excerpts in the screenplay, I was quite surprised to find just how little of Walt is in the movie – and how generally pleasant everything is around him.
In fact, I don’t think he really has any influence over her at all until that scene where she grants him the rights. Until then, the conflict with him is always stemming from Travers’ blanket refusal to even consider what he’s saying.
That’s why I think it’s her father that holds all of the IC conflict throughout and then Walt comes in at the end purely to wrap up the throughline – a little bit like how in Black Panther, Nakia briefly picks up from Killmonger. Her influence scenes don’t have any of the conflict that the Killmonger scenes have, but they share the same perspective.
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So what you’re saying is that Walt is dealing with conflict stemming from the mindset that Mary Poppins is not for sale?
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No, that’s not what I meant. The whole thing about Poppins being for sale or not feels way more like OS stuff – the core conflict of the Overall Story as I see it is that they’re trying to make the movie with the difficult Travers, despite the fact that she’s unconvinced and hasn’t even signed over the rights.
What I meant when I said ‘the conflict with him is always stemming from Travers’ blanket refusal to even consider what he’s saying’ is that he really has no conflict in the whole story.
At no point in the story does Walt encounter conflict from anyone else (or at all), and when he encounters it with Travers, it’s more that she’s just countering whatever he says, rather than a clear issue that he has. He’s actually pretty okay with going along with everything, even when he disagrees (like when he rolls over regarding Travers’ demand that they don’t use the colour red), because he just wants to see the movie made – which is his OS role.
It’s only in that ‘order through imagination’ scene that he steps out of the OS and influences her to take a chance on imagination, but it’s a much quieter and conflict-free scene.
It might be easier to look at her father, and then the hand-off is a little clearer:
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Travers is an alcoholic who inspires his daughter (and frustrates others) with his imaginative approach to life – partly through his drinking. His influence throughout the story is this idea of ‘the world is a fantasy, and we all should embrace that’ – which is something that Ginty loves, but people in the ‘real world’ do not. It’s just not a mindset that works in the world in which Travers lives.
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The grown-up P.L., on the other hand is firmly entrenched in the real world. She has financial difficulties, she witnessed her mother’s suicide attempt, she saw the steady degradation of her father’s condition, etc. When we meet her in this story, she has no time for what she sees as frivolity or fantasy – she’s been disappointed by that too many times and has instead entrenched herself in practicality and reality.
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Which is why Walt visits her after discovering her real name and appeals to her not as a businessman (or a “Hollywood King Midas” as he puts it), but as someone who has seen the same kind of struggle – and still managed to let go of those difficulties and embrace the power of imagination (and sober!):
WALT: Life is a harsh sentence to lay down for yourself.
That moment of influence picks right up where Travers left off, but it’s only in this scene. Everywhere else, Walt is more of an OS player. All of the Influence Character conflict is coming from Travers, Walt just provides the present-day resolution that allows P.L. to embrace the imagination and grant the rights.
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Yeah, I know. That was more my way of sort of backhandedly suggesting that Walt was dealing with a problematic problem of Mind…just not his mind.
Why wouldn’t this be two different problems? Everyone, including Walt has to deal with Travers being difficult, but only Walt has a problem regarding the rights not being for sale. And why aren’t they for sale?
Walt Disney:
You look at me and you see some kind of Hollywood King Midas. You think I’ve built and empire and I want your Mary Poppins as just another brick in my kingdom.
And the next couple lines explain why that’s a problem.
P.L. Travers:
And don’t you?
Walt Disney:
Now, if that’s all it was, would I have suckered up to a stubborn, cranky dame like you for twenty years? No, I’d have saved myself an ulcer.
What Travers thinks of Walt is a problem because now he’s had to deal with her. And we can add to that that it’s prevented him from fulfilling a promise to his daughters.
…except for not being able to make the movie he promised his children he’d make. I don’t think it matters if he’s okay with going along with no red since he’s still unable to make the movie.
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But then where does his influence come from? What is it about the promise that he made to his kids that influences P. L. Travers to change? Because he mentions them twice in the whole movie, so that doesn’t seem like a problem for him as much as a bit of backstory.
Actually, in the scene with ‘no red’, that’s when everyone realises that Walt didn’t get the rights. After that, it becomes much more of a problem for everyone – when Travers rushes out because of how ‘cruel’ Mr Banks is, it’s not just Walt that tries to fix everything. The Shermans and DeGradi concoct a whole new ending just to try and win her over (and the rights, in turn). They know that all of this work is for nil if she just refuses to sign it over.
I consider that to be a Protagonist line more than anything, honestly. Again, it comes back to: where do you see his influence? If it’s to do with making the movie he wanted to make for his kids, how does that influence Travers to make that change at the end?
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His influence comes from the way he views the inequity at the center of the story as a problem of the Mind. Remember we’re talking about perspectives, not characters. So you won’t necessarily see Travers look at Disney and say “because he did that, I’ll do this.” Instead, you’ll see how the I perspective of the Storymind that Travers is one part of is being influenced.
Like when Walt sends all the stuffed animals to her room, her first reaction is to grumpily stuff them all in a closet and put Mickey in the corner. Rather than easing up on her stance, she has become more stubborn. But later, when she’s not sure what to do, she cuddles Mickey, perhaps softening to the idea of considering selling. That’s where we see Walt’s influence, isn’t it?
Because he’s also saying he has this Memory(!!
) and he’s tired of remembering things that way (see? Conflict!). And from a first person perspective, it’s like, yeah, me too! I’m also tired of remembering things that way! Okay, screw it, I guess I’ll sign and see if things change.
Walt is also coming right out and saying-paraphrasing- ‘this is what you think of me, and that’s why you won’t sign, but I’m not like that.’ And this is part of what gets her to change. So his influence also comes through the way he is directly addressing the Mind issue.
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This is good stuff! I’m loving this discussion about the IC. Sounds like Mind is the right Domain! So I guess we can nail down the other Dynamic Story Points now.
All of those sound great. With the Domains forcing the Growth to be start, the only Dynamic Story Point left is the Problem-Solving Style. What do you guys think?
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I took a few days to fully consider Greg’s argument, but I still can’t quite make that connection.
Is that an influence, though? That stems from her MC issues:
PAMELA: I know, I know I need the money. The money. The money.
(to herself)
Money. It’ll bite you on the–
(into phone)
It’s all an illusion you know Mr Russell? All an illusion.
and
PAMELA: Serves me right. Money, money, money. Bit me on the bot.
Then she cuddles Mickey. I don’t see that as Walt’s influence, but pressure from her agent. The part I bolded part relates to the scene immediately before, which suggests a direct influence Travers is feeling. That prior scene is between she and her father, and the key lines:
TRAVERS: We share a Celtic soul, you and I. This world is just an illusion, Ginty old girl. As long as we hold that thought dear, they can’t break us. Money, money, money. Don’t you buy into it Ginty! It’ll bite you on the bot! How did we end up here eh? Look at it. Barren. Breathless. Get as far away from this place as possible my love. Find yourself a patch of green.
(he sighs)
It’s a chimera you know? The world, the bank, you and I, Mr Randolph- whackety-whack-Belhatchett. All an illusion.
That’s a pretty direct influence. She’s dealing with her MC issues because she bought into reality, as opposed to the illusion that her father was forever attempting to instill into her. There’s also that neat ‘you and I’ moment.
But the stuff about his childhood is way more of a ‘you and I are alike’ moment than an outright perspective, no? It feels more like he’s saying ‘you think I’m this guy, but actually, we’re a lot more alike than you think’ than a specific influence.
I was dreading this question. I have absolutely no idea, but I’ll have a think about it.
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The MC is a perspective on the inequity. One of purposes of the story, according to Dramatica, is to show whether the MC will, because of the influence of the IC, change how they approach their personal issues. Where else would the ICs influence show up, then, but in how the MC deals with MC issues?
I probably didn’t pick the best example of influence, but I’m forgetting specific moments of the movie at this point. I could absolutely be wrong, but again, anytime we see the MC consider approaching their personal issues in a new way, I’d think that would be directly attributable to the IC influence.
The reason I wouldn’t say that the father has an IC role-and again, I could be super wrong-is because those scenes don’t play out, in my view, as any kind of memory that has a present influence on how she handles her personal issues. That is, the things he does do not appear to be presently influencing her in a way that changes how she approaches problems, but rather show how he influenced her in the past-before the Present inequity began-thus explaining why she handles her problems the way she does presently. So to me, those scenes do not appear to show how she remembers her father and then moves away from Universe and toward Mind, but how events prior to the problem explain why she has the Psychology she has today. Backstory, justification.
I feel like we’re in agreement on storyform choices, just not on how to get there. Feel free to continue on with the next point. What are your thoughts on PSS @RailwayAdventurer?
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Hmm, I’ve always had an easier time understanding the PSS theoretically than finding specific illustrations in a story. Shooting in the dark here, I’m thinking of Pam’s demands for the film, which causes delays, effecting the production’s likeliness to happen.
I understand that, but I don’t fully see how her cuddling the bear signifies a change of approach. She doesn’t become any easier to work with, nor does she sign over the rights; in fact, she’s just as much of a pain in the ass toward Walt in the next scenes as she was beforehand.
The influence is there to challenge the MC’s approach, and she is absolutely challenged by her father’s ‘it’s an illusion’ mentality. The whole reason she cuddles Mickey is because she feels bad that she bought into the reality her father specifically warned against, and is now having to face up to what she’s gotten herself into: “Serves me right. Money, money, money. Bit me on the bot.”
Overall, I would agree. A lot of them seem quite disconnected to her in the present day (and function, as you say, as backstory), with only one or two directly connecting to/influencing her current situation. But that’s also how I view the Walt stuff. I don’t see – outside of that one scene – him having any influence on her whatsoever; he’s too entrenched in the Overall Story of ‘Poppins’, until he finds out she’s not who she says she is. I think the IC in this story is quite underdeveloped, generally.
Not to mention that this particular MC is so complicated in her general demeanor that it’s hard to read her. This might be easier just to look at benchmarks or requirements later, I think.
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Sounds good to me. Moving down to the Type level then, where do you guys think the Concerns lie?