What is the difference between what someone thinks and how they think?

questions
#1

Reading through old topics I came across one where @jhull explains the difference between Manipulation and Fixed Attitude as roughly what someone thinks and how they think. That seems simple enough, but I’m just looking for a little more insight into what Manipulation might entail.

Let’s say Santa Claus thinks the North Pole elves are just the best at making toys and no other elves can produce the same quality. That’s what he thinks, right? So it’s a Fixed Attitude. How might that be changed to a How he thinks? (I’m not writing a story about a Fixed Att Santa, just using a Decembery example, feel free to offer other examples, examples are how I get things). Thanks,

#2

“I think my elves are great, but they still make wooden toys from the 1950s. We are going to generate and test out some new ideas for toys.”

Now he has to figure out:
• What kinds of things are fun for kids
• How to get the elves to embrace new kinds of things in the workshop
• How to champion a toy that the elves don’t understand, but Santa thinks kids will (a PS4?)
• And even wonder if he’s just a wonderful part of tradition, or if he should be innovative

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#3

Thanks for the examples, @MWollaeger. Very helpful stuff.

What if he starts out thinking the elves are great, but the more time goes on, the more he realizes they are starting to slack off and screw things up? Maybe some toys are falling apart, maybe the paperwork didn’t get done that prevents The Big Toy Co from suing over copyright infringement. Does that read as a Manipulation/Psychology story? Or is that still a Fixed Attitude/Mind story that explores the attitude that the elves are great in light of their screw ups? Or can it still go either way depending on what else is happening in the story?

#4

Your examples strike me as still being in the Fixed Attitude quad because they force Santa to confront his bias.

However, if his reaction to sloppy paperwork was to think up a plan to prevent it from happening again…

You’re right that it has a lot to do with what else is going on in the story, mostly because any story idea sufficiently small enough can be put practically anywhere.

You’ve given some good potential scenes for drama, but the Domain is a perspective on the dramas. Slacking off could be Doing for example, or an example of boredom coming from a Situation.

#5

Me too. But I was trying to go for a change in thinking about the elves. How about 1 last example? Same attitude from SC. These elves are great except for the recent sloppiness. They’re starting to really drop the ball here. So the elves try to work harder to prevent SC from thinking poorly of them. Manipulation?

In that case, SC would be the one performing the Manipulation, but it would be the elves attitudes that were being manipulated, right? Not SCs.

#6

I lied. 1 more last example. I’m trying to find a Manipulation story that doesn’t rely on any other characters/players. So forget the elves. Santa Claus had the attitude that he puts out the best toys, then sees how the kids prefer PS4s and whatnot. So he changes his thoughts on how good his toys are. His problem is, the change in the way he thinks about his toys has caused him to feel like he can’t continue to be a toy maker even though that’s what he loves to do. Manipulation? Or still Fixed Attitude?

#7

Here is the approach I would recommend with this:

  1. Look at the Types under Manipulation and Fixed Attitude and see which set feels more like your character.

  2. When you say “doesn’t rely on any other character” I assume you’re crafting a MC Throughline. Is that right? So, force yourself into it: make an OS of Fixed Attitude: Everyone has a fixed attitude about the best way to spend Christmas. One person thinks it’s all about the festivities. One person thinks we need to stop focusing on Consumerism. One person is Certain Santa is fake.

Now, your brain will more naturally find a Manipulation Throughline for Santa.

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#8

I’m not presently attempting anything for a story, but yes, my questions were directed toward an MC Throughline. I’m really just trying to get a better grasp on internal processes so I can better encode my stories in the future. Your replies have been a big help. Even just the process of thinking about the topic while forming questions I think has helped me see this part of the quad a little better. Thanks again.

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#9

One of the things that is tricky is that Throughlines operate independently and in resonance with the other parts of the story. So they can suddenly seem clear and then the next moment feel like they can’t be separated. Thinking about it is the only solution, so it’s smart do be doing what you are doing.

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#10

Another useful tool from @jhull for differentiating between the two.

For the conflict to come to rest:

  • Is something stuck that needs to be unstuck? [Fixed Attitude or Situation]
  • Is something ongoing that needs to be stopped? [Manipulation or Activity]

Another way of looking at it:

  • Is your location, internal or external, the source of trouble? (Fixed Attitude or Situation)
  • Is your journey, internal or external, the source of trouble? (Manipulation or Activity)

So, per the suggestions above, if Santa’s saying, “My elves’ toys are fine the way they are,” he’s rooted at a spot. You would adjust the story around Santa to make sure this generates conflict, you would show him struggle to maintain this ‘location’ against pressure and influence.

But if Santa’s got an obsession with making better toys, “I’m sure I can top last year’s,” he’s in an ongoing loop that needs to stop or solve itself. You’d adjust the story so that his meddling, his unwillingness to leave things be, creates problems around him.

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#11

@LunarDynasty, great ways to look at it. Thanks for the input. “My toys are great” is a state. It’s WHAT he thinks. But an obsession of “I can make better toys” is more about the process. It’s HOW he thinks about what he’s doing. I can get that! Perfect example. Thanks again, all.

#12

Fixed Attitude: I hate Broccoli!
Manipulation: You wouldn’t eat broccoli if you really loved me.

A more subtle version might be:

Fixed Attitude: I love broccoli!
Manipulation: I am obsessed with broccoli and behave badly (or well) in order to get my way.

Think of “Manipulation” (or its original label Psychology) as expressed through behavior, while Fixed Attitude as expressed through attitude or mindset.

In your Santa’s elves example, you make the mistake of saying (story-wise) that you want it to go from Fixed Attitude to Manipulation, when a story would not explore both of those domains within the same context. I think it is better to look at the same subject matter and express it as two DIFFERENT story possibilities:

FIXED ATTITUDE: Santa, “My elves make the best toys in the world.”
MANIPULATION: Santa, “I try to be the best Santa I can be so I can be a role model for my elves and inspire them to be the best toymakers they can be.”

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#13

@chuntley, Thanks for the input. Your examples are helping. Particularly the comments about behavior and attitude. That feels like a good concrete thing i can wrap my mind around.

When you say:

I knew it didn’t feel right the way I was wording it. But while I had it wrong, I think my heart may still have been in the right place…maybe. The idea was that if the Domains each represent a different lens through which to view the problem, how would I switch the lens on the example of Fixed Attitude to see it through the lens of Manipulation, which I think you perfectly answered with the example of Santa trying to be a role model for the elves.

I swear, it’s like the more I Learn about Dramatica, the less I Understand (or should that be the more I Think about it, the less I Know?).

#14

I think the trick is not to overthink it. :slight_smile: