YA Supernatural Novel, help and guidance please

writing
#182

That’s one option I’ve considered. I’ve also played around a bit with the Protagonist being Luke while making Boone the Guardian and the IC and the Contagonist becomes the MC. Then, the MC and the IC are kinda like playing chess with Luke as a chess piece. That’s interesting, but it is a radical departure and might be too experimental to get the publishing houses interests in a new author.

1.) In the overall series of books, there are more than just the one bad guy. Hela (Loki’s daughter, not to be confused with Marvel’s Hel) is another bad guy. Anyway, Hela sends the undead to Luke’s home with the intent to destroy him. She won’t be revealed for another few novels, but she rules over the land of the dead. She has not and will not incarnate. But, I don’t really have an explanation, yet, for the serendipity of Boone & Co and her undead arriving at near the same time.

2.) Luke has always known. Here it is revealed to other characters and to the reader.

3.) My recent statement about what is in the book focused on Luke, specifically. As such, it didn’t discuss Boone’s stuff. That was deliberate.

4.) To have his college admission and free-ride taken away so that he is “forced” to stay home to take care of his step-dad.

#183

No matter what I do, I can’t get Audz’ storyform to work at all. Outcome should be success. If I make the changes mlucas recommends to the MC Throughline, then I’m forced to make changes to IC and RS Throughlines as well.

#184

Anything in a story should produce a dramatic change.

#185

Thanks for the answers!

This can’t happen – the Contagonist is an Overall Story role, so only exists there (i.e. Temptation and Hinder in the OS). The MC is only in the MC throughline (though his “player”, Luke in this case does play a role in the OS). Luke could certainly be the Contagonist in the OS, maybe that’s what you meant? EDIT: I think I probably just completely misunderstood you here, sorry!
Note: I don’t think it’s that experimental to have the MC player not be the Protagonist in a novel. Not sure if that’s what you meant. If you meant the MC player being Contagonist, that probably is pretty rare.

Please, please don’t hate me but this is 100% Linear thinking. “If I act out like this, then my free ride will be taken away and I’ll be ‘forced’ to stay home.” (Jim Hull did this to me when analysing my story as part of his mentorship program. At one point my MC, whom I thought was Holistic, realized she had to cut her finger off to get her magic back and heal her friend. Jim was like “if I cut my finger off then I’ll be able to heal him” – totally Linear. That was the only tweak to the storyform, and I was sad to lose what I thought was the perfect Unique Ability (Delay = time-slowing magic), but he was totally right – the storyform esp. signposts fit WAY better. And in the end the Unique Ability of Self Interest, which didn’t seem right at first, was totally, totally, perfect.)

Now that’s only one example so it could still be a Holistic MC, and you could change this thinking to make it Holistic. But you might find that you yourself default to linear thinking, so that doing writing a Holistic MC might be difficult. (I’m not sure I could ever write a Holistic MC, unless I told myself they were “crazy”.)

Yeah, sorry, I was focusing on the MC throughline there, but yeah I think all the other throughlines’ signposts will be affected by making it Success.

#186

Sure, there can be plenty of dramatic change with a Concern of Doing. Struggling to Do can be just as dramatic as struggling to Obtain (or Understand, Learn, Become, Conceive, etc.).

Check this:

#187

You are 100% correct. It is totally linear. But, Loki is the king of cleverness, the Imam or Insight, the Shah of sleight, he is the man/god, grand alpha male of seeing things other people don’t see - things other people can’t see, just because his brain works differently. I really believe holistic thinking is a key characteristic of him without which he wouldn’t be Loki. It might be that his thinking processes become more Loki-like as he gets closer to his quickening.
But, being open-minded, let’s see what changes in the story form if his problem-solving is changed from holistic to linear. Frankly, if we do change the Problem-Style to Linear, then we pretty much have to rebuild the entire story form from scratch.

#188

Aha! Perhaps what’s going on here is that Luke is the MC and a Linear thinker, while Loki is like another character, until near the end of the story when as part of his Change (and quickening in the storytelling) he and Loki merge. (Or begin to merge.) So Loki is free to be as massively Holistic as you want, while we the audience experience what it’s like to be Luke, a Linear thinker faced with an inner “demon” who thinks totally differently from the way we ( as Luke) do.

Yeah, but changing MC to Situation like @Audz was recommending is an even bigger change, IMO. (What did you think of that?) And I had been wondering about Problem of Consider… again, a very fundamental change.

Honestly, to me the Signposts are more about emphasis; nothing is necessarily disallowed. Anything can happen in any Signpost, the question is, where is the focus, where is the conflict coming from within the scope of that act?

#189

Would you mind showing me how you would construct the storyform given the many pieces of advice you’ve offered and which you still support? This is, again, in the spirit of open-mindedness.

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#190

Sure! The biggest thing bothering me though is whether Luke’s a Do-er (Situation) or Be-er (Mind) regarding his personal issues. So far the only thing I found to go on in terms of how he actually acts re: his personal issues is his stealing the car, but that could be either (taking the car is Do-ing, but acting out could be Be-ing).

I agree with @Audz’s logic about his destiny being something external – except part of me thinks that (in this story) his personal issues are about his brother and being “frozen”. Those issues are the ones that would be there without Boone’s influence, whereas all the Situation & Future stuff seems to come with Boone’s influence. Yet, he really, does have this terrible destiny he has to deal with, so I don’t know, it’s tough.

I wonder, do you see him more as having a hole in his heart (needing to start something) or a chip on his shoulder (needing to stop)?

Anyway, if we could try both (italics denote where I’m less sure)

Be-er

Change, Start, Be-er, Linear, Decision, Optionlock, Success, Good; OS: Physics, Obtaining, Approach, Consider
This gives MC: Mind, Subconscious, Closure, Consider
And IC: Situation, Future, Openness, Conscience

OS Signposts: Learning -> Understanding -> Doing -> Obtaining
MC Signposts: Memories -> Preconscious (Impulsive Rsp) -> Conscious -> Subconscious

Do-er

Change, Stop, Do-er, Linear, Decision, Optionlock, Success, Good; OS: Physics, Obtaining, Approach, Consider
This gives MC: Situation, Future, Openness, Consider
And IC: Mind, Subconscious, Closure, Control

OS Signposts: Doing -> Obtaining -> Learning -> Understanding
MC Signposts: Past -> Present -> Progress -> Future

You could play around with the Driver or Judgment to see if it gives you a different signpost order you like. I noticed that with Action Driver the OS Signposts were actually the same regardless of Do-er/Be-er, they were Learning -> Doing -> Obtaining -> Understanding.

Also, Symptom/Response are either Logic/Feeling (Do-er) or Feeling/Logic (Be-er). I could see Feeling having something to do with the NG’s wyrds and especially Luke’s, since it seemed kind of an emotional exploration, and Feeling can also represent instincts. Logic might be asking why, looking for cause/effect and trying to explain stuff, trying to make sense or thinking something doesn’t make sense, etc. This pair feels right for your story, but hard to tell which is Symptom vs. Response.

#191

I will sometimes base these kinds of questions, at least in part, on what Boone is. Since I view Boone as a Do-er, that helps to make the argument that Luke is a Be-er. Since Boone is a linear thinker, Luke is a holistic thinker. I do this kind of thing so as to emphasize that they are on two different sides of the negotiating table.

My take on it is that in THIS story, he’s internal (for the reasons you mention). However, in the following books, he is much more external. Also, in the first novel, he begins as a shy, quiet, frozen introvert with a god inside of him. In the later books, he is a god with a shy, quiet, introvert inside of him. The following books deal much more with his destiny. In a way, you can think of it as this book being about becoming a man (er god) - assertive, self-controlled - whereas the later books deal with what it means to be a man (er god) - responsible, loss of naivete,

You’ve done some very interesting stuff on this story form. I especially like your MC, IC, and RS Throughlines.
I like the IC Critical Flaw: Dream
I wonder if IC Problem: Conscience and IC Solution: Temptation can be reversed?
RS Catalyst: Commitment and RS Inhibitor: Morality both look good.

The one place I am going to have to split with you on is I do prefer
OS Signposts
1: Understanding Appreciating the meaning of the relic,Not understanding that the Dark Elf has the prophecy prevents the Incarnates from being prepared for his attack. Understanding that the prophecy has been taken leads to fear and infighting amongst the incarnates
2.) Obtaining TDE hunting down incarnates before they quicken, An attempt to capture the Dark Elf leads to the Incarnates being led into a trap
3.) Gathering Information - Everyone learns Luke’s role in his little brother’s death. He is also believed to have killed Boone
4.) Doing Standing up to the Dark Elf leads to an epic battle where Luke must quicken or die. Destroying the prophecy causes Luke/Loki to come very near dying.

#192

Just a thought, but have you considered whether Loki might actually be Luke’s influence character?

I only ask because the way you’re describing Luke’s existence makes it sound like he and Loki are two separate identities sharing one body (kind of a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde situation). If this is the case, then you might consider whether the RS should be between Loki and Luke as two separate characters wrestling for control of one body.

Alternately, if you’re just being metaphorical when describing what’s going on here, feel free to disregard this!

#193

The issue I have with Loki being Luke’s IC is in communication. The reader is just reading a bunch of thoughts which are never spoken. I want there to be external action and interaction between the IC and the MC.

#194

Well, if they’re sharing one body, than I would imagine interaction between the two of them should be pretty doable! You’d just have to use your imagination. You could describe the inner sensations in a physical way, even if nothing physical is happening. Remember, your RS is the heart of your story. What matters most is transmitting how the relationship feels to the characters involved from a subjective POV, not portraying the Objective truth of what’s actually happening (as in the OS). It’s not a coincidence that the old terms for the OS and RS were Objective Story and Subjective Story, respectively!

With that said, of course you don’t have to make Loki the IC for Luke. The reason I asked was because it sounded like you were treating Luke and Loki almost as if they were two separate people. If that’s actually what’s going on here, then that fact should probably be reflected in your storyform.

You could also have an RS that takes place between the Luke and Loki, while the IC role is played by Boone, as discussed around the seventeen minute mark of this episode of Narrative First:

https://narrativefirst.com/podcasts/52

It would be an unusual arrangement, to be sure, but it’s been done before (Middlemarch, I’m looking at you!) and that might be what’s going on here.

By the way, I feel like I should apologize; I’m not trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be! I just want to help make sure that whatever storyform you settle on, it’s the best possible representation of the tensions you’re working with in the narrative!

Best,

Audrey

#195

Cool it seems like we’re getting somewhere! Regarding OS Signposts, those were “output” from the storyform selections I made. Signpost order is sort of unpredictable – it’s not published what affects it, or what it affects – while the “main” story points are work predictably.

You can get those OS Signposts with Holistic, Decision, and Judgment Bad, i.e.:
Change, Start, Be-er, Holistic, Decision, Optionlock, Success, Bad; OS: Physics, Obtaining, Approach, Consider
The Symptom/Response for OS & IC aren’t changed from the Be-er storyform above, i.e. Feeling/Logic

(funny thing is, this is really close to that original storyform you had with Reconsider as Problem…)

If you want the IC Problem to be Temptation, it will also change the OS & MC Problem to Reconsider instead of Consider, and flip all the Symptom/Responses around (but won’t affect signposts). Personally, I felt that all the conflict came from considering Luke and weighing whether he was worth it or not, etc., not from reconsidering or lack of reconsidering, which is quite different. (But ultimately it’s up to you – I don’t have the full picture you do.)

Remember the most important factor of the IC story points, including Problem, is how they affect the MC. So Boone might be affecting Luke to face his guilty conscience, first and foremost. And Boone’s alliance with Luke could be Conscience on his part: staying away from Luke would give the immediate benefit of being safe from Loki, but he’s foregoing that benefit because with it comes the consequence of TDE winning Ragnarok.

Plus, the IC Solution of Temptation could come into it as a “demotivator”. Since Boone is a steadfast character, the Solution is best seen as the thing that saps his drive. So if he falls in love (or lust) and that takes him away from his quest, that works perfectly.

#196

I actually really like the idea that Loki is sort of “involved” in the IC throughline, with Boone as the main/actual IC, but some of the influence is focused or felt through Loki sometimes.

I’ve found this in my own story – a longtime friend of the MC who wants him to change his ways, but has absolutely no effect on him, so he just helps point out the MC’s personal issues (plus he has a separate OS role). Then the IC comes along, messes with the MC, and suddenly the MC is willing to listen to this longtime friend. So the IC’s the one with the influence, but the friend is helping to focus that influence into specific action.

I’ve noticed Chris Huntley, when leading the users group analyses, often accepts that there may be more than one IC but tries to get the group to find the main one. e.g. the Pitch Perfect analysis (available on YouTube) where he agrees that Becca’s father may be a second IC.

@Audz, I’m glad you mentioned that separate RS and IC characters thing from the podcast, that was a HUGE moment for me too, I can remember exactly where my bus was at the time I heard it. (ech! what a story geek!) I’m guessing that @YellowSuspenders has more of a changing relationship in mind for Boone, but I’d definitely like to hear his thoughts.

#197

Actually, I’ve realized that the IC Problem as defined by Dramatica does not represent a problem that the IC has. Rather, it represents what is driving him. With that in mind, the IC Problem is going to be either something like Feelings (such as rage at the TDE) or Conscience (which is that you gave him). Boone is driven either by his feelings or by his conscience (or both as in a righteous anger). [quote=“mlucas, post:195, topic:1487”]
Personally, I felt that all the conflict came from considering Luke and weighing whether he was worth it or not, etc., not from reconsidering or lack of reconsidering
[/quote]
And I agree.

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#198

While I do like this idea (not making Loki the entire IC, but a participant in it), I’m going to have to experiment with it in writing to see how it comes out.

#199

Right, absolutely! I should have mentioned that. It’s the kind of thing you just go by feel and see if it turns out that way. (I certainly didn’t plan to have Eric, the MC’s friend in my story, be an IC “lens” or whatever he is.)

#200

You know what would be really cool is if, in the beginning of the story, we can read Luke’s mind. Over the span of the novel, we slowly realize another voice emerging so that he ends up with two thinkers in his skull.
While that would be cool, I’m not sure if I can do it.

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#201

There are a few ways I can think of you could do this, but yeah, it would be tricky.

One trick might be to start out using Luke’s thoughts sort of buried into the narration (still in past tense, unless you’re using present tense), which a lot of third person novels do. Then, use present-tense italics to convey the direct thoughts of Loki.

“Bitch,” shouted Boone. “Get away from her!”

This was crazy. Boone was completely outnumbered, and Luke still had no idea what he was doing with a sword. If a fight started…

Who cares. The thought came into his head unbidden. Just kill them all.

(Hope you don’t mind me using your characters in an example. I’m sure I got everything wrong but it seemed like a fun way to get the idea across, since your characters & ideas are so awesome!)

I’m not sure how you would transition that – maybe it would go to having more of the Loki-thoughts, and after a while they wouldn’t be conveyed as “unbidden” or whatever, they would seem more like Luke’s thoughts? And/or you could start to incorporate Loki’s voice into the narration without italics.

Anyway, Dramatica has little to say about this, other than the idea that Loki is a separate character. (Maybe he’s Temptation in the OS, for example.)