YA Supernatural Novel, help and guidance please

writing
#61

Okay, all of that looks pretty good! (there is some interesting interplay between MC Unique Ability, Problem-Solving Style, and Judgment, but we can worry about that later)

Note that the IC Problem of Temptation forces the OS & MC Problem to be Reconsider. This is a super important point so I want you to be sure on it… I had been wondering about:

  • OS & MC Problem Pursuit, which would make the IC Problem Help, with Uncontrolled/Control as the IC Symptom/Response
  • or OS & MC Problem Avoid, which would make the IC Problem Hinder, with Control as IC Symptom and Uncontrolled as IC Response.

The first one especially seemed worth a look, because of Baldur’s drive to seek Help from Loki. (Which presumably causes difficulties for both Baldur and Loki.)

Is Baldur more motivated by Help – doing whatever it takes to get Loki’s help and to help the incarnates? Or is he really more about Temptation – throwing caution to the wind to get what he wants?

Of course all this might be moot if Pursuit doesn’t fit the MC throughline. I thought it might work if Luke was sort of stuck in this place of not pursuing anything, unwilling to try to for anything in his life.

(I know this is hard. I’m not trying to push back against your ideas because I don’t agree, but because I want to test them out, help you see if they’re objective and solid. Note a lot of people have to start writing before they can figure out these last bits! As their ideas may not solidify completely until then. Kudos for getting this far!)

#62

Did you get your foot surgery yet? Just wondering how that went!

Let me know when the back-and-forth storyforming seems like WE have a problem of Reconsider, LOL. :slight_smile:

#63

Well, I met with the orthopedic surgeon yesterday. He decided that I should wear a boot for four weeks and stay off of my foot. At the end of that time, he’ll re-evaluate to see if I need that surgery after all. While I have two breaks and a Lizfranc injury, they cause little pain and I’m able to walk on them (I shouldn’t walk on them, but I can). He says that, if I were in significant pain, he’d go ahead and have the surgery now. But, since I’m not, we can delay and see how its going to resolve on its own. I’m happy with that as I really do not want a bunch of screws in my ankle bones.

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#64

I’ll answer this with another question. “Which would have more dramatic tension, that Baldur be motivated by help or that he be motivated by temptation?” I think IC Problem: Temptation would make a more interesting story than either help or hinder.

#65

Okay! That’s a good answer (even though it’s a question)!

I should explain that in my own process I tend to assume that I’m not free to “set” any of the storyform – that my subsconscious “muse” is in control of all the ideas so it’s the one deciding whether the IC Problem is Help or Temptation or whatever. But I forget that not everyone works like that, so sorry!

If you like Temptation better (and you probably like it better both consciously and subconsciously) then I’d definitely say to go with that.

That’s awesome – I think only 8 possible storyforms are left (and half of them have MC Signpost 1 as Memory!) All that’s left to determine is Story Driver, Linear vs. Holistic, and Judgment.

NOTE: funny enough, the current story I’m writing, at one time I actually had the IC Problem as Temptation because she tempts the MC through attraction and sexuality into doing some bad stuff … but eventually I realized the IC Problem is actually Help, since everything she does is motivated by trying to help her dying mother. In my story, that Help provides plenty of dramatic tension, but it’s a different story.

#66

I can definitely see how you are going about that. In your story, did the MC see the IC’s behavior as helpful?

#67

I’m looking over the characteristics we haven’t filled in yet and I’m asking myself which of them are most likely to keep the reader engaged throughout the story. I’m thinking that’s going to be either one of the Benchmarks or Forewarnings.

The OS Benchmark offers either Doing or Gathering Information. I don’t think that’s really helpful. “Doing” is just too generic. It doesn’t invoke any kind of mental image.

The MC Benchmark offers either Contemplation or Impulsive Responses. Honestly, I find nothing interesting to a typical YA male in reading about a hero who is Contemplating.

The IC Benchmark offers either How Things Are Changing or The Present. As with the OS, I find nothing invoked by “The Present.” Its just too bland.

Finally, we have RS offering Conceiving an Idea vs. Playing a Role. Maybe in a mystery, Conceiving an Idea might be engaging. But, this is not a mystery novel. So, I’m going with Playing a Role.

Finally, in Forewarnings, we are offered Contemplation and Impulsive Responses. These are the same options offered by the OS and I have the same answer for them.

Interestingly, if we select Impulsive Responses as the Forewarning, then almost every other preference is selected as well. We end up with MC Benchmark: Impulsive Responses, IC Benchmark: How Things are Changing, and RS Benchmark: Playing a Role. The only problem is OS Benchmark: Doing, which is just too generic to be helpful in shaping the story.

That leaves one characteristic still unfilled. What to do with Limit? I think an Optionlock would create a better story, but it would also demand more from the author in order to write well. I just don’t know if I’ve got the skill for that.

#68

Mostly, her presence influences the MC to want to help her, because he has this huge crush on her. He kind of messes everything up for her by helping when she told him not to, and she rejects him … but then later she needs his help again. So, it’s kind of just a lot of back-and-forth conflict all centred on Help. It’s neat how her need to help her mom drives everything she does, yet as far as the MC goes, it all shows up as separate instances of Help. Sort of like problematic Help begets other problematic Help…
(But note that mine is a Steadfast story, so the OS Problem is also Help, which is probably why it shows up so much as the throughlines get woven together.)

It also works really well with the MC Issue of Hope (hopeless romantic) and even MC Problem of Control (being enamoured with one particular girl, as he is wont to do, is a kind of laser focus i.e. Control). That’s the benefit of Dramatica, making sure it all works well together.

Sorry, we should get back to your story now… :smiley:

#69

Okay… your last post is cool because now I can really educate you. I agree that most of the Concerns (Types) don’t sound very dramatically interesting. But they are!!

Doing is super awesome, what it means is that the physical activities in this story – perhaps super-powered fights between incarnates and badguys, whatever … it means that they MATTER. And in this story they would be the Requirements so it means they have to perform various physical endeavours in order to defeat the Dark Elf. It doesn’t have to be battles or fighting either; that’s why Doing necessarily sounds so bland because it can be any activity. Tracking, using your incarnate superpowers properly, running fast, whatever.

Right, similar to Concerns always being in the same “quad” position (lower-left in your case), all the Benchmarks will be in the same position (upper-right for Doing, Impulsive Responses, etc.) And the MC Benchmark will always be the same Type as the Forewarnings, the OS Benchmark same as the Requirements, etc.

Progress (aka How Things Are Changing) definitely does seem to fit your IC better, as he would be worried about and influencing the MC on the progress of the prophecy and his destiny as Loki etc.

Optionlock definitely fits your story better and you definitely have the skill. I had been wondering if you were a bestselling writer like Rick Riordan based on the coolness of your story!!

(More later … company just arrived…)

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#70

If you ever need a beta reader for that story of yours, I’d love to be one.

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#71

Thanks. Fingers crossed that I can become a bestselling author.

I’m thinking maybe that Loki and Baldur try to figure out who the Dark Elf is targeting for assassination next. Then, they try to get to that god and cause that god to quicken (gain their divine powers and knowledge) before TDE arrives. Then, the three gods; Loki, Baldur, and whomever they get to quicken, can team up to fight TDE. They don’t have the relic, but they do have the archaeologist’s research notes, which, sadly, are incomplete, being partly burned from a fire in the museum when the archaeologist was killed.
Perhaps there comes a time when Loki and Baldur don’t agree on whom the next target is who is going to be killed, so they split up.
Maybe during one of the early incidents it looks like Loki kills the god.
Maybe every time Luke draws upon his Loki-self, he is drawn closer to his destiny. But, the research notes get destroyed or lost somehow or the remaining notes are all ash and he must draw upon his Loki-self to figure out where the next god is.

#72

I don’t mean to interrupt the flow of the conversation, but just wanted to drop in a few comments.

From a storyform perspective, both elements hold the potential for plenty of dramatic tension. Fighting temptation or constantly giving in to it can be just as dramatic and tense as refusing to help, or refusing others help, or helping too much. Show it to be a problem and make the stakes high and every element will be tense.

I know Mike already addressed this, but as a Benchmark, Doing should show progress in the story as they work toward the goal. There seems like there could be all kinds of Doing in order to retrieve the prophecy. Maybe they have to track down and fight with three or four of TDEs minions before they can get to him. Maybe they have to prevent a number of attacks in order to force TDE’s hand somehow. You don’t have to have a Doing benchmark at all, but just trying to show how a Doing Benchmark can be exciting.

Again, I think there’s lots of excitement to be had with a Benchmark of Contemplating as a way to show progress. Maybe while Baldur is trying to convince Loki to join the fight, Loki initially isn’t going to consider, or is reluctant and tries to fight Baldur to send him away. Plenty of action in demigod fights! And then Loki learns about one of the NGs that TDE took out, and suddenly all his NG bad@$$ery is unleashed as he now considers not only joining the fight, but leading it in as violent a manner as you consider appropriate in YA novel! Contemplating doesn’t just have to be a character rubbing his chin and wondering about things.

TDE has Baldur, or Loki’s love interest, or someone important to him, ensnared. He’s ordered his hellbeast to devour! Loki has to jump into action now! Or maybe TDE has unleashed an army of minions ordered to wipe out every living thing in an attempt to draw Loki out. If Loki doesn’t act now, entire villages of men, women, and children will be destroyed!

I’m not trying to tell you to go with any of these options or any of the storytelling I suggested. Just trying to show how every point on the table can and should be seen as really exciting. If you use them as storytelling (guilty of this myself!) they can be really boring and bland. But if you remember that they are the source of the problem, and that your characters are going to react to those issues in lots of different ways, there should be room for action, drama, whatever you want in any area of the Dramatica Table.

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#73

Great stuff guys. @Gregolas, totally agree with all your points.

I’m wondering if you’d be willing to temporarily de-select the MC Unique Ability of Dream. For two reasons: 1) it’s usually better to figure out the more fundamental points first (Mental Sex, Story Driver, and Judgment), and 2) Hope is also a possibility for the MC Unique Ability, which in Dramatica is pretty close to Dream.

Also if you deselect the MC UA, it allows Requirements of Understanding, which could fit your story really well (figuring out who’s being targeted next, making sense of the burned research notes, misunderstandings around Loki’s actions, etc.). Not saying for sure, but just a thought. It would also help bring The Past and Memories into play as benchmarks for IC & MC, and also prereqs and forewarnings. And it does seem like past events and history could be important in this story (Luke’s brother, archaelogy, Norse history…)

####Story Driver
Did you agree with Action as the Story Driver? I was thinking the theft of the prophecy, the murder of the archaeologist are great potential First Drivers. Also, for the other Drivers that are the “Act Turns” (moving the story from one act/Signpost to the next), one or more of them might revolve around the next assassination, or the attempt to stop it.

####Story Judgment
And do you have any thoughts on Story Judgment Good vs. Bad? Was this a Triumphant ending, or a bittersweet one where they stop the Dark Elf but everyone, especially Luke, ends up in an emotionally worse place, still with bitterness or angst about personal issues?
It’s okay if you’re not sure. Sometimes we just have to pencil it in until we write the story.

#74

I believe the decision to get Luke involved is the point where the story starts. TDE stealing the artifact is more of a “before credits” prologue sort of thing. I, also, view the assassination/attempts to stop the assassination are more “climaxes of the current act” then the start of a new act.

When the story begins, the MC is in juvenile detention and getting mandated counseling because he stole a car and took it joyriding. He did this because he received an acceptance letter from college. Subconsciously, his guilt over his little brother’s death makes him feel like he must “earn” the right to live. His step-dad (who is a good guy) has suffered from chronic depression ever since his son died (Luke’s little brother is actually Luke’s half-brother). Luke won’t consciously acknowledge his own guilt over his brother’s death. So, he steals a car and takes it joyriding, deliberately sabotaging his chances of getting a much needed scholarship by giving himself a criminal record. This way, he gets to balm his guilt without consciously examining it. He gets to stay home and keep trying to “earn” his right to live.
During the adventure, he gains the strength he needs to confess to his step-dad his role in his little brother’s death. He confesses it first to Baldur and then, later, to his step-dad. That’s certainly positive growth.
However, at the end of the story, just as he’s about to open the door to his home, he realizes that, as Loki, he’ll bring only further harm to his step-dad. So, he turns around and leaves.
In the beginning of the story, he can’t leave home. In the end of the story, he can’t return home. On the other hand, he certainly becomes much stronger, psychologically, then he was when he started.

The difference between hope and dream is that hope falls within the realm of what is thought possible. Dream isn’t. As a result, when dream is implemented as a unique ability, it represents a much bigger quantum shift then hope does. Hope is like crossing a bridge which looks pretty solidly built. Dream is like that bridge-crossing scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_-BOvWVycM I much prefer Dream.

#75

is there somewhere where this kind of thing is documented? This is exactly what I meant by knowing the algorithm behind Dramatica. It would help enormously when story forming to know where all the “wires” are.

#76

So this part…

…kinda changes everything about how I was seeing your story.

If this is where the story starts, rather than starting with the stealing of the prophecy as Mike suggested (note: the stealing of the prophecy can be the first driver even if it happens prior to the storytelling), then this changes what I see as the OS Goal and Concern. I could very well be wrong about this, though.

Anyway, if the OS Story starts with the stealing of the prophecy, then I see it as they have problems from trying to regain possession of the prophecy and have a goal of regaining possession of the prophecy. This is fine, but this is the kind of thing I see and start feeling like it’s kind of bland. Not because it’s bad, but it’s just really straightforward. “We have problems from not being in possession of the prophecy so let’s solve it by regaining possession of the prophecy.” In this story, getting Luke’s help might be a Requirement or Prerequisite, or just one of the Optionlock’s or an SP.

It does seem like this problem could make the first story in the series seem pretty self contained, though, which could be a good thing. Like Star Wars: A New Hope. That story doesn’t need anymore after it and doesn’t necessarily leave me feeling like there’s anything else needed in the story. But it does allow for the war to continue and for the world to really be opened up to the audience in the next chapter.

But if the OS story really starts with a decision to get Luke involved, then it changes things up a bit. First, it makes me think the OS problems come from trying to recruit (Obtain) Luke’s help, but rather than changing the Goal to “having Luke on our side”, the Goal could still be “regaining possession of the prophecy”. This isn’t as bland to me because it feels like another layer. It also seems like it could make this story feel like the first part of a larger series rather than a self-contained story about destroying the prophecy. Like, “we need to get Luke into the battle for Ragnarok, and we do that by showing him how he needs to help us fight against TDE, and after he succeeds at that, he will continue on in the fight to help us bring about Ragnarok”. This might feel more like the first installment of The Lord of the Rings.

I like this, too. If the murders take place at the beginning of the act, it’s like everyone is reacting to being murdered and the options look like the number of NGs still alive. If the murders are at the end of the act, then the good guys look more proactive and we see that each attempt to stop TDE is failing. Again, both are fine and I may be seeing it wrong, but just sharing my preference.

I could go on, but that’s probably enough for now. And I may be wrong about all that, anyway.

#77

Hmm… But isn’t the decision to get Luke involved driven by the fact that TDE has stolen the artifact and begun (or threatens to begin) assassinating incarnates? It seems like that decision was driven by the action that came before.

I believe a Story Driver can indeed be seen as the “climax of the current act” – they are the things that turn the story into the next act, so the next act starts after them.

This is interesting. I would guess that your story is a Success/Good with a high Cost (where your Cost is the Future …e.g. Luke has to give up his future at home, his future with his step-dad, at least temporarily). It doesn’t sound like Luke regrets his choices – he did what he had to do.

It’s a bit tricky to tell for sure though. How do the other characters end up emotionally? Baldur, the step-dad, anyone else?

#78

This is what makes me really interested as a writer - what is going on inside Luke’s and Boone’s heads and hearts. Frankly, I had to have someone else remind me just how much potential the OS story has, too, because I was so focused on Luke’s psyche and Boone’s psyche.

TDE is kinda playing this, too. He believes that the more he can get Luke to draw upon his Loki-self, the quicker Luke will get corrupted. TDE actually has a chance in the beginning of the book to kill Baldur. I mean, in the written scene, Baldur is literally kneeling, incapacitated, at TDE’s feet. TDE has just murdered the archaeologist. TDE lets him go free because he knows that Baldur has few options than to get Loki involved*. TDE wants Baldur and Loki to come together under stress.

*Because Loki is the cleverest of all gods save, perhaps, Odin and a master of asymmetric warfare - just the kind of guy Baldur needs to stop TDE after TDE gets the relic

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#79

Are we ready to go to the next stage? If I understand correctly, that would be story encoding or story weaving (I’m not sure which).

#80

This does seem to be the way the conversation was going. Totally up to @YellowSuspenders of course, as to which way the story goes. If you want retrieving the prophecy to seem like the main problem in this story, the driver probably should be the loss of the prophecy. Obtaining Luke might be the first Sign Post in the larger story.

After you’ve narrowed down to 1 storyform, maybe repost all the story engine settings again?