Beauty and the Beast

analysis
#104

The Crucial Elements indicate the breaking point between objective and subjective views – between the Overall Story Perspective and the Main Character Perspective.

Control and Freedom would be in both Belle’s Throughline and the Overall Story Throughline.

Which one of the following sounds more like the argument of Beauty and the Beast?

Keep living free from attachments and you can transform the cruelest of men into a prince.

or

Keep getting in the way of things and you can transform the cruelest of men into a prince.

There appears to be more evidence of the former.

#105

I can see what you mean, but I just want to give Hinder and Help a fair shake. How about:

Keep accepting burdens onto yourself and you can transform the cruelest of men into a prince.

OR (assuming we flip the dynamic pairs, which @Lakis and I were going to try next)

Keep helping others and you can transform the cruelest of men into a prince.

That said, I’m totally willing to look at the storyform with Conscience or Temptation as OS Problem. I actually do like Responsibility a lot for the OS Issue (Belle takes responsibility for her father when she takes his place; the villagers take responsibility to rid the world of the beast), and in fact that’s in the storyform I came up with on my own last year. Hmm…

#106

Both of those narrative arguments sound good tome @mlucas.

I could also potentially see Responsibility. Conscience and Temptation don’t quite feel right though.

#107

I am not confident about it, but I see the Beast’s problem as Temptation. Example here is the problem in the beginning:

And here is the Beast’s Change:

It seems to me that he’s got conscience as solution, but maybe I’m wrong.

4 Likes
#108

Well, that pretty much wraps it up. LOL

(Totally forgot about that scene - you’ll notice I didn’t leave an example of Conscience!)

2 Likes
#109

I can see Conscience here. But can you explain a little more (also @kf27) how his problem would be Temptation? Maybe I’m misunderstanding the meaning of the word. Is the idea that he has to lure or seduce someone (e.g. make someone fall in love with him)?

4 Likes
#110

(crossposted with @Lakis)

Cool @kf27 ! It’s possible that we’re getting into a small difference between the live action story and the cartoon – but more likely that I need to just watch the live action movie again, since it’s been a year. There’s only so much you can get from the script.

Also, one cool thing about Responsibility is that it puts the RS in Morality – which is a fantastic way to describe “we need to fall in love in order to lift the curse for everyone”.

4 Likes
#111

I see the problem of Temptation here as a kind of superficial or inconsiderate judgement. It’s similiar in the Pride and Prejudice. (http://dramatica.com/analysis/pride-and-prejudice)

(Sorry for grammar mistakes, but English is not my primary language :slight_smile: )

3 Likes
#112

So do we have a final storyform?

#113

Yes, I believe it’s

Steadfast
Start
Do-er
Linear
Action
Optionlock
Success
Good
Psychology
Becoming
Responsibility
Temptation

2 Likes
#114

Jim did you mean Steadfast here? That’s what we’ve been assuming for Belle.

#115

I think that you’re all saying the lack of adventure in the future creates conflict in Belle that we see coming out in song now, or that being imprisoned in the future is a problem because Belle won’t be able to have the adventure she longs for and won’t be able to take care of her father. Is that accurate?

The reason I’m having trouble with that is because it’s not that Belle is going to move to some small provincial life or be imprisoned in the future. Those things are happening now. And yes, they will continue in perpetuity into the future, but I don’t see how they are a Future source of inequity when both are presently happening. If you’re pointing to her desire to have adventure in the future, I also don’t get the idea that that’s a Future desire. She wants those things now. That’s why she reads the books, to fulfill that desire for adventure now the only way she can.

What future? He wants to marry her, which implies a future. But she is not betrothed to him. He pursues her, and she turns him down. That is happening now. There’s one line in a song where she imagines being ‘his little wife’ but that’s all the future that is even mentioned that I can think of with that topic.

2 Likes
August in the Vanishing City (novel)
#116

Whoops! Yes. Steadfast is right. Sorry about that.

#117

No I think it’s more that she wants adventure in the great wide open and that she wants more than she can bear. And for once it would be grand if they could understand, that she’s got something more PLANNED.

3 Likes
#118

Her plans are to have adventure, so that is pretty much what I said. What did I miss? You’re saying that having these plans for the future are problematic for Belle. How are they shown to be a problem if not by producing the inner turmoil within her that leads her to sing about it?
And does she really have a future planned? No. She just wants more than this provincial life that she’s presently living. She wants that in the future, but she wants it now, too.

#119

Imagine that Belle knows that in a few months she and her father are leaving the provincial town for the land of her dreams, someplace magical and wonderful that encourages girls to read and learn and have adventures. (Hogwart’s, maybe. Post Voldemort of course. And hope no one notices the resemblance. “Ron, stop staring at that girl! I could look like that if I spent more time on my hair.”)

Imagine they already have their tickets.

Do you think she would still be singing longingly about not having adventure, about the boring life the town has planned for her? Or that Gaston and the Nasty Headmaster would bother her?

I think she’d be so excited she wouldn’t even notice them!

To put it a different way, the thing that’s producing the inner turmoil you mentioned (great term BTW) is the boring future she’s stuck with.

Although Jim paraphrased to make his point, the line from the song is actually “I want so much more than THEY’VE got planned.” The townsfolk have stuck (Universe) her with a boring, unfulfilling future.

3 Likes
#120

yes, I think Gaston planning to murder her father or throw him in the asylum would still bother her.

#121

Aren’t they currently carrying out those plans? THEY don’t have a future plan any more than she does. All I see that you’ve done with the letter to Hogwarts is remove one song.

#122

Ah okay, I see where you’re coming from now.

I think all the stuff about Belle liking books and being considered weird and having to take care of her father is all part of the MC throughline. I think part of Gaston wanting to marry her is too (he’s sort of prejudiced for her because of her beauty). But only the part where “there’s this buffoon who won’t give up his stubborn idea to marry me”.

The MC throughline is about her being stuck in that town, where things are NOT changing.

The plans that are being carried out, murdering her father or consigning him to the asylum, I think that belongs in the OS throughline. (problematic manners of thinking, manipulation – though even without knowing the domain it’s still the part of the story that involves the overall characters)

2 Likes
#123

That was what I asked above.

I don’t mean to be argumentative (and notice that I waited until the form was found and conversation otherwise pretty much over to bring it up), but I just don’t see these things as clear cut examples of the Future creating conflict. I’d be able to accept an answer as simple as ‘these aren’t very clear examples, and that’s okay. A more clear example might have been if Belle had already agreed to marry Gaston some time from now. Then there would be a solid future creating problems for Belle. Either the writers didn’t think of it or just didn’t want to go that way.” Or, you know, something to that effect. With that answer, even though a lot of the conflict is about people thinking she’s odd now, or Phillipe returning without papa and he being in trouble now and the like, i would probably still be able to move past it a lot easier.