On second thought, I think the IC is just Killmonger.
Nakia’s argument is still in the OS domain.
On second thought, I think the IC is just Killmonger.
Nakia’s argument is still in the OS domain.
But how was Killmonger’s perspective influencing him during the first half of the film?
It’s mostly at the beginning before Killmonger turns up. I think there’s a scene where T’Challa asks her to stick around in Wakanda, and she doesn’t want to, but suggests that they open up and she can use their tech to help fix problems around the world? I think. After Killmonger comes in, he takes over that throughline for pretty much the rest of the movie.
I think it’s hard to define what is IC and what is OS, because I’m VERY confident in what the Symptom/Response is and it can easily be conflated if worded incorrectly. I think that’s where W’Kabi comes into it, but I’ll explain my thoughts on that later.
Hm. You could be right, but the T’Chaka stuff feels more like the MC thoughline to me. Everything about T’Challa trying to live up to his father’s legacy and finding that it’s “hard for a good man to be king”. That stuff felt really personal to him. I could be convinced, though. I can’t remember a lot about what T’Chaka said outside of that one line.
Nakia’s out there in the world trying to help those who live outside of Wakanda’s protection. When T’Challa asks her to stay, she says she can’t – she has to do something for those suffering outside Wakanda.
Killmonger has the same view (though with a less sympathetic approach). He’s seen the suffering of African people throughout the world and wants to give them the power to fight against their oppressors.
I think you’d have a tough time making the case that the RS – the “heart of the story” – is between those two. There’s just not enough there – T’Chaka’s mostly in the background.
On the other hand, you can certainly find enough touchpoints: T’Chaka’s voice is right there at the beginning, telling T’Challa about Wakanda and showing what it means to be king. He appears in each act in one form or another, always seemingly guiding T’Challa. It’s not so much a father/son relationship as a mentor/mentee relationship, though both fall apart when T’Challa learns of his father’s mistakes.
So I guess it could go either way, though if the IC is T’Chaka, then I think the RS is kind of weak overall in terms of effectiveness.
This might be assumption but Killmonger inherited his fathers perspective on life and Wakanda. Before T’Challa was born, Ulysses had stolen the vibranium with the help of Killmongers father.
Notice, as a kid, he found his fathers notes, intel…
That’s why he was able to find the Vibranium hammer in the museum and influence Ulysses(who should be more seasoned in this sort of thing) to get it.
He remains hidden and uses Ulysses as a front. But it is his influence that instigates T’Challa to act.
I think all of that might be OS. Everyone has some kind of investment in the Vibranium, so I’m sure pretty much everything directly involving the Vibranium is part of the Overall Story.
Great points everyone.
Oh right! … it’s not just what Nakia says but her whole way of life that shows that perspective.
Hmm. One concern with that being the IC perspective is that the whole thing about helping those outside Wakanda is something that’s discussed by a lot of characters. To the point where it might be part of the OS? Killmonger, Nakia, and W’Kabi all push for that in different ways.
Also, when Nakia and T’Challa kiss at the end it didn’t seem like an RS moment to me – more like Dividends. Definitely T’Challa and Killmonger on the hill watching the sunset felt like RS though, with Killmonger’s death showing IC Resolve.
Maybe it would help clarify the IC if we could pinpoint what the MC perspective really is? I can sort of see where T’Challa’s problems lie (trying to be a good king, trying to follow in his father’s footsteps), but what is his actual point of view on that?
And does everyone agree T’Challa is a Changed MC?
P.S. one thing I wanted to ask is whether everyone stayed past the “pretty credits” to see the bonus scene at the United Nations? No question, that was part of the story itself – I’d say OS Solution and Judgment were illustrated there at least (even without worrying what the OS Solution is). It didn’t necessarily show anything that wasn’t shown already, but strengthened the appreciations.
I’m gonna jump around a little bit.
Okay, his perspective for me is like this: T’Challa, as the new king, seems to be trying to maintain the status quo and honour the traditions of his father’s rule, which were basically about keeping to yourself and taking care of your people before anyone else (kind of a #WakandaFirst deal, if you get my drift). He’s trying to live up to the standards that came before, and then you have Killmonger coming in and saying “No, no. Do something radical! Show the world we exist!”
T’Challa is definitely changed, yes.
So this is where my argument for IC falls apart a bit and is why I think it’s a bit underdeveloped. In the OS, I’m near-certain that it’s a symptom/response of Control and Uncontrolled. You have SO MANY characters basically saying “these people around the world are being oppressed and punished, we have to give them weapons to liberate them”. And while that symptom/response will be shared in the Steadfast IC, it just doesn’t make sense to have two doses of that exact same appreciation.
But that whole “let them know who we are” thing REALLY feels like the perspective that’s challenging him. I can’t think of an alternate influence perspective. Might try and catch the movie again this coming week.
I think Nakia is only IC until Killmonger turns up (one or two scenes). Everything after that, Killmonger is IC/RS.
Cool … But how do you see Killmonger influencing T’Challa before Killmonger comes to Wakanda?
That’s why I was grasping at the father for the IC, because I couldn’t see any influence from anyone else for T’Challa to change his perspective. Whereas the father might’ve been seemingly agreeing with T’Challa yet the subtext (unspoken secrets/lies, what the father had to do to protect Wakanda) was making him doubt himself. But I’m probably just grasping at something that might not be there…
Or do you think those secrets and lies are actually part of Killmonger’s influence because they have to do with his childhood, how he was left behind, his origin as a villain?
NOTE: if we spin on this too much, we could just proceed with Killmonger as the “main IC”, then look back once we know more.
I don’t think he does. I think Nakia takes on that role and that perspective before Killmonger arrives in Wakanda. I don’t think it’s especially strong and the RS is basically nonexistent until Killmonger, but Nakia does fulfill that ‘we need to shake things up’ perspective.
I’m still unsure on the T’Chaka IC, but could be convinced. If he were the IC, how would you define his perspective?
(I’m okay with just citing Killmonger and coming back when we know more, if everyone else is okay with that)
Ah! Okay sorry, I think I misread your earlier statement when you said “a few scenes” I somehow read it as “a few lines of dialog”. My bad.
I was thinking something like “a King must do whatever it takes to protect his own people, even if it means harming others”.
But honestly, I’m sort of just arguing for it to make sure that someone does. I did feel like when T’Challa found out his father had killed his uncle and left little Erik behind, that was the biggest moment of impact pushing him to Change – but that moment is also wrapped up in Erik too.
I think we should proceed with Erik Killmonger as IC, keeping in our back pocket that Nakia and/or T’Chaka might help the IC throughline along at times.
Ah that makes sense. I still think it’s mostly confined to the MC throughline, but yeah, I can see that being something of an influence. We’ll just push forward and see if Nakia/T’Chaka come up later on.
Is this the general consensus for the dynamics, or does anyone have another suggestion?
MC RESOLVE: Changed
MC GROWTH: Stop
MC APPROACH: Do-er
MC MENTAL SEX: Male
(These movies tend to have the same kind of dynamics, so thought it might speed things along to go with a safe bet…)
All looks good!
Probably the best illustration for Do-er is his willingness to take on challengers to the throne (W’kabi and Killmonger). He doesn’t try to talk them out of it, or even psych himself up for battle – just accepts the challenge and does what is necessary. (There are plenty of other illustrations, but that one’s very clearly related to his personal throughline.)
For Mental Sex of Male: 1) Wakanda is dangerous now, so I need to get my friends and family out of the country.
2) If I get sis to turn on the mag-train, then our suits will be disabled, and then I can fight him more effectively (and maybe talk to him more easily too).
Good ones! There’s also the Linear way of thinking when he looks at Ross: “He took a bullet for my sister, so I can trust him now” and “we have the technology to heal him, so I’ll take him back to Wakanda.”
Okay. Domains and/or Concerns. @Khodu, let rip!
Just taking a shot at a description of the OS … something like “the fight for control of Wakanda and its technology”.
For T’Challa to be a do-er, you definitely couldn’t have Killmonger as the influence character. Killmonger is far more of a do-er than T’Challa. I wonder if T’Challa’s reticence – his tendency to first try and adapt himself rather than force the situation around him to change – might indicate a be-er? For example, he constantly listens to the council and tries to reconcile what they tell him he should do, whereas Killmonger makes it clear from the start that they’ll do what he wants, not the other way around.
But you don’t get the sense that this is how he’d approach it if he had a choice. Since T’Challa never seems very happy about having to have these fights, wouldn’t a do-er actually try to change the system? It seems like T’Challa is adapting himself to the necessity of how things have always been done rather than taking the initiative to change things.
OS ISSUE: Wisdom. What is considered the way Wakandans should interact with the world.
MC ISSUE: Fact. That he is the rightful King.
IC ISSUE: Value. He is obsessed with the Value of things. We see it in his actions.
RS ISSUE: Knowledge. T’Challa not knowing a thing about Erik. Erik knowing exactly how to get to T’Challa, to Wakanda, etc.
Hmm. I see where you are coming from, and I’m totally willing to accept the idea that T’Challa could be a Be-er. (I find him sort of hard to pin down as an MC … maybe he’s actually the IC? Just kidding! )
This could still be Be-er behaviour. He sort of struts into Wakanda, pushing his attitude and the force of his personality on everyone to get things done. It seems like that Be-ing, that presence of personality and attitude, is the stuff that really challenges T’Challa – that T’Challa has no easy answer for.
I’m also thinking of how Killmonger acts in the museum scene, strutting around and toying with the historian lady, and taking that mask because he’s “really feelin’ it”. While Claw and his goons do the dirty work.
So, I’m kind of on the fence about this. Maybe if we could really pin down the MC personal issues and worldview (in regular words before worrying about Domain etc.), we could see how T’Challa acts specifically in relation to those?
P.S. @crayzbrian did you notice this thread started up again?
This is why I think the IC is really underdeveloped. Killmonger’s influence feels like a strong Mindset more than anything, but he acts like a total do-er (breaking into the museum, killing Claue, etc.). But, like @mlucas, I’m finding it hard to find moments where T’Challa actually does anything that illustrates him as either a Do-er OR a Be-er that doesn’t factor into the OS.
Absolutely. Let’s start there. (Gah, I get too excited with these things and go diving in headfirst…)
As far as I can see, the things that only T’Challa is dealing with are:
I can’t remember anything else that solely affects him.
Seems to me the source of T’Challa’s problems and conflicts stem from being unsure about how to be king. There’s a particularly telling moment when T’Chaka says (paraphrasing): “You are a good man, but it’s hard for a good man to be a strong king.”
T’Challa’s pain comes from trying to be like his father only to discover his father was more brutal than he’s willing to become. If I had to characterize T’Challa’s MC throughline concern it would be: “How am I supposed to become a strong king while remaining a good man?”