Easy: Klaue’s theft of vibranium in the past and the murders he committed to do it are a thorn in the side of the Wakandans. Remember when T’Challa’s buddy says (paraphrasing): “Your father had years to find and kill Klaue but he never did.” It’s a big sticking point – enough of one that Killmonger bringing back Klaue’s dead body is enough to win him the support of T’Challa’s best friend.
Everett Ross being brought to Wakanda is a break with past tradition – one that even Shuri and the Dora Milaje are concerned with. Shuri even refers to him as “colonizer” – a reminder of what people like Everett represent to the Wakandans who only avoided being colonized (or facing wars to prevent it) by holding to their secrecy. T’Challa’s insistence on bringing Ross to Wakanda to save him is his first real step as protagonist towards where he’ll up at the end of the movie: sharing Wakanda’s technology to help others.
Klau never did get over the past. He mentions it. Being the “only outsider” that saw it and lived. But I feel this could be the OS benchmark. The more he remembers the past(and the possibilities), the more he wants the status quo to change. Concerns: Progress.
But his first appearance in the movie shows him stealing the Vibranium artefact from the museum and killing innocents to do it. He’s not doing it to spite the Wakandans, in fact he has no real connection to them at all in that first scene. He’s just stealing it to make money. If you remove his history with the Wakandans, is there still an issue? Yeah, he’s stealing their artefacts and killing innocent people.
But where is the conflict for The Past in that line? That to me sounds like a failure to Obtain for sure. He’s basically saying “your Dad’s legacy is that he never captured this guy.”
Well, only Okoye actively speaks out against it. Shuri is excited by the prospect of “another broken white boy to fix”. The Colonizer line is clearly her poking fun at him, since seconds later, they’re working together to identify Killmonger.
I brought this up because there’s very little conflict that comes from Ross being in Wakanda. You have Okoye speaking out against it and you have M’Baku making fun of him. That’s about it. Otherwise, nobody even sees him. The council don’t know about it, Killmonger never knows he’s there, etc. Nobody knows about the breaking of tradition other than Nakia/Okoye/Shuri/M’Baku/T’Challa. And only Okoye has a problem with it.
The only conflict he really is involved with in the whole movie is the casino/interrogation/Klaue’s breakout/drone fight. All of which are activity-based.
That’s not a problem for him whatsoever, though. That whole interrogation scene, he mentions that incident in a sentence and then spends the rest talking about how much Vibranium they have stored up (and also singing What is Love). He doesn’t seem all that bothered by what happened, he’s too focused on just stealing the Vibranium.
No, you’re confusing this with Klaue’s major theft of vibranium that takes place in the past – before the movie’s early scenes where Killmonger steals the weapons from the museum.
Now you’re onto Killmonger’s throughline, not the OS.
There’s nothing to obtain here, really. The vibranium is long gone, the people killed during the theft will be dead no matter what. T’Challa’s buddy here is concerned with events the past – they’re still creating a wound for him and for Wakanda.
You asked how Ross matters to the OS and that’s what I answered (though it seems a minor question at best so I’m not sure why it’s concerning to you.) Ross getting involved in the casino scenes are irrelevant to the larger issues plaguing Wakanda. His relevance is that by bringing him to Wakanda, T’Challa has broken the centuries–old secrecy of the country’s true nature.
This is one of the problems I have with the group analysis model of Dramatica: someone can point to a minor character or two, ask how they fit into the OS, get an answer and decide it’s not accurate enough or “big” enough to define the entire OS.
If and when Ross goes back to the USA and tells his government that Wakanda is a major technology power decades ahead of the rest of the world, the country’s existence is going to be forever altered. Why does it matter one bit whether the council knows right away? Or whether Killmonger is even aware of Ross’s existence?
The source of conflicts for everyone throughout the movie is Wakanda’s role in the world – that it’s always been an isolationist nation holding to its traditions. Now there are pressures to break free from the past – all of which emerge from problems created in the past that were never resolved (from Klaue’s theft years ago of vibranium and murder of M’Baku’s loved ones, to the death of Killmonger’s father that makes him want to take over Wakanda, to the sins of the past committed against African peoples that have gone unpunished.)
The story resolves when T’Challa, as protagonist, makes the decision to bring what Wakanda has to the rest of the world.
That would show a Concern of The Future though! And I’d say everyone is more concerned with “who’s going to GET Wakanda’s technological power” …
An OS of Situation is compelling because of the whole setup, and the way it ended. You could say Wakanda was “stuck” being uber-powerful and not sharing their technology, and that came unstuck at the end.
But where is the First Driver that starts the story and creates this problematic Situation? Is it the death of King T’Chaka? That does kind of make sense as the thing that got Erik Killmonger to start his plan in motion. But “putting a plan into motion” is a process, so we’re back to Physics again.
I think the key is this: does the film show that “something is wrong in the universe” that would still be wrong if they stopped all their activities (stealing, fighting, usurping). Or does it show that “there are problematic activities going on” which, when stopped, bring an end to the conflict?
I think it’s the latter. Sure people talk about what’s right and wrong, how Wakandan tech can help, but that’s NOT the source of conflict for the characters in this story. The conflict came from somebody stirring the pot and carrying out a plan to take over.
If it helps, keep in mind that Domains and often Concerns can be identified by 8-10 year old kids. I think a lot of the Isolationism stuff would have gone over their heads.
I don’t think this is true. I think the Overall Story resolves when they win the battle and defeat Killmonger. Bringing Wakanda to the rest of the world is important and part of the structure, but it’s more about Judgment and MC Resolve.
But that’s backstory. None of it is in the movie, and when it’s mentioned, there’s literally no conflict. He tells Ross about it and Ross moves past it. Okoye tells the council about their history with him and everyone just says “yep, that’s right.” There’s no conflict stemming from their past. It’s just backstory establishing why they want to capture him.
The Vibranium theft is 100% OS. What about that influences anyone else? That theft is the first driver. Think about the casino fight. That includes everyone. Why is it kicking off? Because Klaue is trying to sell the Vibranium he stole. Killmonger isn’t even involved.
The OS involves everyone. I’m trying to understand your argument by getting you to clarify how the two non-Wakandans factor in to what you’re arguing as the OS. I think that’s a perfectly relevant question.
Fine, but I don’t think I said that. Or I didn’t mean to, anyway. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m not being difficult or trying to force my ideas. I’m challenging you because that’s how we get to a consensus. You convinced me on the Do-er/Be-er thing by challenging my theory. That’s how the users groups work. I’m just asking for examples.
I have to head out now but I’ll respond to the rest later.
We’re starting to delve into that territory where Dramatica as a tool for analysis falls apart for me, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I’ve never fundamentally agreed with the notion that there’s a single provably objective storyform to define a movie or book. My interest in Dramatica as a means of analysis from the questions and ideas it raises, not from any belief that a measurably objective underlying storyform exists at the exclusion of all others.
With that caveat in mind…
People are always “concerned” with the future. Their fears and hopes always involve what will happen somewhere from one second to a hundred years from now. No one has ever been “concerned” with the past. When the past is referenced by a human being its always in the context of their worries about what it means for the future. Where the past is relevant to human beings it’s in terms of past events being the source of conflict for things we’re dealing with in the present.
So you can’t really say, “Well, everyone’s worried about the future so the OS concern must be the future.” They’re always worried about the future. That’s why the question of what is the source of the conflict is so much more revealing and relevant than the question of what people think is their concern. My argument is that the source of the underlying conflict in the OS has to do not simply with a chain of past events (which is also always the case in one form or another) but rather that “Wakanda being stuck in the past creates conflicts for everyone”
No offence, and I know this has been bandied about before, but I think this is nonsense. It implies either that Dramatica is so shallow that it only concerns itself with things a ten year old can understand or that kids are somehow all geniuses and we become stupid as adults. Sometimes the nature of an underlying conflict is complex and deals with something we only really understand as adults. Think of the great and complex works of fiction you had to read in university. Now hand one to an eight year old and see if you really think they get it and adults don’t.
This actually changes nothing from the initial state of the movie. We started with T’Challa in charge, we end with T’Challa in charge. Do you really think that’s what the movie was about? All those themes expressed and questions raised and conflicts over what’s right and wrong and the nature of one nation’s responsibility to other African people’s who’ve been oppressed, but in the end it’s a movie about who gets to be king?
Events from the past are always going to be backstory in the context of the movie whether shown or not. I disagree entirely about there being “literally not conflict” when it’s mentioned. M’Baku makes it clear to T’Challa that this was a failure of his father and a test of whether he’s going to be a better king. T’Challa is forced to make a promise to M’Baku and his failure to live up to that promise loses him M’Baku’s support and thus enables Killmonger to make a challenge for the throne.
If the vibranium theft is the first driver – and I’m not saying you’re wrong – but then what is the entire opening of the movie? T’Challa and the Dora Milaje fight alongside Nakia to free women and even soldiers who are being oppressed. This was clearly meant to establish a thematic question in the story about the responsibility of a powerful African nation to aid those being oppressed by outsiders or their own people.
That’s no problem, and I gave the examples. They aren’t necessarily compelling to you and that’s fine. As I said at the outset, I’m an outlier in this in that I don’t think the type of consensus generated in a user group represents compelling evidence of a single objective storyform to the exclusion of others. In a film like Whiplash we’d probably all agree the IC is the teacher, but in Black Panther we can reasonably debate whether the IC is T’Chaka or Killmonger or Nakia or even Shuri. The process is always fuzzy at the margins.
No offence at all! I’m glad you’re willing to have this discussion and to represent your point of view honestly.
Maybe a better way to say it would be that we should be able to figure out the Domains & Concerns with the sound off* – in fact that may make it easier. The Domains are usually simple, and overthinking is what leads us into trouble. Think of The Lives of Others, an incredibly deep and moving story, but the OS Concern is very simply Gathering Information because that’s what the Stasi is doing that’s causing the conflict.
* I think this idea has come up before?
One suggestion, it may be better not to worry too much about OS Concerns (Past vs. Future say) until we get to a reasonable consensus on OS Domain. I know I’ve been guilty of using Obtaining examples to push Physics, so sorry. I think it’s okay to do a little of that, but we should try to focus it on the Domain first.
Movie 1: Mary and Jack are standing in their kitchen, facing each other:
Jack: “What did you want to tell me, Mary?”
Mary: “I’m worried about your mother’s visit next week. Do you think we have enough cheese in the fridge?”
Movie 2: Mary and Jack are standing in their kitchen, facing each other:
Jack: “What did you want to tell me, Mary?”
Mary: “I murdered your mother last night. Every night when you go to sleep I go out and strangle another of your relatives.”
Now, of course we’re talking about a single scene here, but clearly structurally these are two different movies. if the sound (and thus words) didn’t matter then what would be the point?
Put differently, watch almost any play without being able to hear the actors and you’ll likely have no idea what’s going on. The things people say matter.
Furthermore, the modern emphasis (especially in a superhero movie) on requiring set piece action scenes every ten minutes means that if you exclude dialogue from the analysis then every movie will look like it’s about physics. That would make Dramatica a very shallow model for interpreting a film. It seems to me that what defines the structure of the story is why those actions are taking place, not simply that there happens to be punching on the screen.
I would posit that if you watched that scene, you would sense something from the characters’ reactions and facial expressions, the camera shots, etc. – but you would still have no idea what’s going on. Yet if you had the stamina to watch the whole movie, your story sense would start to get a good picture of the throughline Domains and maybe Concerns.
However, I 100% admit this is entirely theoretical until one of us tries it, and I doubt we have the time. (you have important novels to finish dammit! and I unfortunately have a boring software job wasting my time while I try to finish my first novel!)
Keep in mind I’m only talking about Domains and Concerns here, not the whole storyform, so it would be kind of shallow – sort of at the level of classifying something as an action movie vs. a psychological thriller vs. a rom-com. And I admit some movies we’d probably get wrong, for the reasons you state.
Mostly my point was that Domains and Concerns are pretty basic (despite often being so difficult to figure out).
Isn’t all of this in the MC throughline, though? W’Kabi (I think that’s who you mean) has that line of “I thought you’d be different, but it’s more of the same.” Which feels strongly like T’Challa’s personal problems, more than the OS.
It establishes an important thematic question, but it doesn’t introduce the inequity. After he gets Nakia out of her mission, things go on as normal. The coronation, the fights, etc. But when that theft happens, it puts Klaue back on the radar of the Wakandans. That’s when W’Kabi says they need to get Klaue back to Wakanda “dead or alive”, and they go looking for him in the casino, etc. If that theft didn’t happen, no story. They wouldn’t have gone after Klaue, so they wouldn’t have captured him in Korea; then Killmonger wouldn’t have broken him out, so T’Challa wouldn’t see the ring; etc. Basically, everything would continue as normal.
Okay. Let’s try this instead. I’ll open this out to everyone. I’m just gonna step away from arguing Obtaining for a sec and just listen to you guys. Choose your concerns argue for all four throughlines (preferably with examples, even though it’s near impossible for some throughlines…). That might be an easier way of doing it than debating what is backstory and what isn’t.
This was what I thought. I was convinced, actually. But, on second watch, I do think T’Challa is a Be-er (although it’s very touch-and-go in terms of that being illustrated). He just doesn’t feel like a Stop character whatsoever. He really feels like he’s holding back.
If you can assess the domains of a movie without watching it then I’m not sure what point there is to a Dramatica analysis.
Imagine if I said, “I haven’t read War & Peace, but I already know the OS is in Situation, the MC in Universe…etc.”
This would certainly save generations of high school students valuable time in their English Lit classes.
I agree. Since I don’t think there’s ever a single storyform that exclusively and conclusively defines a movie, there’s more (for me, anyway) to be learned from hearing lots of people’s thoughts on what they’re seeing through the lens of Dramatica than in going too far down one rabbit hole.
Aha! Jim seeing preview = kids seeing whole thing = adults who aren’t Jim watching with sound off.
@jhull – ditto for me as @jhay. Was totally thinking MC in Universe, other than Stop seemed wrong. Now I’m on board with MC T’Challa as a Be-er. The movie feels a lot like Collateral.
@jhay, great pointer on Killmonger as IC in Universe because of his royal blood. This is exactly what challenges the MC T’Challa – the fact that he is royal blood, that he is family, that he was orphaned and abandoned by T’Challa’s father.
For T’Challa in Mind, I can see it like, he’s stuck in the shadow of his father, in the belief of his father as a good king. And he can’t resolve that until he’s pushed to move, to step out of that shadow and see it for what it is.
Dude! That’s like saying, if you can assess the type of art (impressionist vs. abstract etc.) standing 20 feet away, then there’s no point in classifying art. Domains are the VERY broad strokes. And I’m sure Jim knows he’s only making an educated guess which has a high likelihood of being right, due to his experience.
No, the analogue to types of art (impressionist vs. abstract) would be to movie genres (action vs. romantic comedy).
If all action (or even just superhero) films are just de facto in physics, then 1) who cares about domains? They’re just an unnecessarily complicated way to refer to a genre, and 2) why have we been debating the domains all this time?
OS Throughline (Defeating Killmonger’s plot to bring Wakandan weapons to the world)
Domain: Physics. The conflict stems from the activities of Killmonger’s plot, the reaction to it, and the attempts to stop him.
Concern: Obtaining. Conflict stemming from all of:
stealing Vibranium, catching Klaue
winning / defending / losing / cementing the Wakandan throne
taking the Wakandan technology and giving it to oppressed people of African descent around the world
defeating Killmonger
catching the transport ships that are getting away
MC Throughline (T’Challa, the new king who wants to do right by his father’s legacy and be a strong king while remaining a good man)
Domain: Mind. He’s stuck in the belief of his father as this great king that he has to live up to.
Concern: Subconscious. He has a great inner desire to live up to his father. He misses his father, shown in the scene where he says he’s not ready to be without him), which also shows fear. These inner fears and desires cause him personal trouble as he is afraid to step away from his father’s legacy and Wakandan traditions – afraid to govern differently than his father did.
Additionally, he experiences great conflict from the deep guilt he feels when he learns what his father did in the name of protecting Wakanda. This grief hamstrings him in the challenge against Killmonger, causing him to lose the throne.
IC Throughline (Erik Killmonger, Wakandan prince who was orphaned and abandoned in the ghetto by T’Challa’s father)
Domain: Situation. Erik’s influence comes from the fact that he is royal blood, able to challenge the throne. And from the fact that he grew up in the ghetto, and what T’Challa’s father did to him. His physicality and ability as a killer – shown by his body kill-scars – impact everyone especially T’Challa when he’s challenged.
By defeating T’Challa in the challenge, he influences T’Challa’s Situation – his kingship is called into question. This influences him to change his perspective about how to be king.
Concern: The Future. He’s driven to change the future for oppressed black people around the world and this impacts everyone, especially T’Challa. He impacts Wakanda’s and especially T’Challa’s future by taking away his throne. He influences T’Challa to change his mind about how Wakanda goes into the future (setting up a future in which Wakandan technology is shared).
RS Throughline (cousins / rivals)
Domain & Concern: Psychology & Becoming. A relationship initially based on trickery and deceit (both the lies that T’Challa believed and Killmonger’s initial deception before he reveals himself) that struggles to become more. It experiences conflict over the obligations and responsibilities to each other as cousins.
and I unfortunately have a boring software job wasting my time while I try to finish my first novel!)