Yeah, I was having trouble with that. Reading back through the discussion, Obtaining does seem pretty strong.
Hmmm. Those are pretty good illustrations.
It doesn’t seem like I do 
but I’ll think about it more and see if I can come up with something.
I’m not sure if this was already mentioned, but what about M’Baku for the first half part of the movie?
He is also influences the other characters because of his Situation, or the situation that he sees Wakanda in. He challenges T’Challa physically, and later on has an impact because of his Situation – his tribe being in the mountains is what allowed them to save T’Challa and keep him from dying.
Plus, M’Baku’s situation kind of mirrors Killmonger’s – he’s basically an outcast from the rest of Wakandan society and uses history and traditions to make an impact.
Just a thought.
First off: hi, Adana! Welcome to the boards! 
M’Baku wasn’t actually ever suggested as an influence character candidate, but that’s an interesting thought and I’ll think it over a little more after posting this initial response.
My one concern with M’Baku as an Influence Character is that I don’t think he has a distinct perspective outside of the Overall Story. For example, him challenging T’Challa for the throne is very much cemented in the conflict of Attitude v Approach: “We have watched as your technology was developed by a child! We have watched as you have done nothing, etc.”. In fact, his whole thing about maintaining tradition is more in-line with T’Challa’s perspective than Killmonger, since T’Challa wants to just live up to what his father started, rather than doing anything bold or new.
Killmonger, on the other hand, is really arguing that they should burn everything down and start over. He’s trying to promote a future where he’s essentially the dictator of a ‘conquerer’ nation.
M’Baku does have a similar situation in terms of being outcast, though I’m not sure it’s quite as influential as Killmonger’s Wakandan ties. It’s possible that there might be a hand-off in one or two scenes, but I can’t remember. I’ll have a little think about that. Good thought!
I can see how M’Baku’s traditionalism is in-line with T’Challa’s thinking, but I don’t really think that T’Challa is really focused on traditionalism. It seems like T’Challa is really just focused on trying to be a good king, and he’s trying to figure out what that means.
He believes that his father was good king, and M’Baku helps to disabuse him of that notion when he speaks of how none of the previous kings would interact with the White Gorilla tribe. M’Baku’s challenge for the throne may have been within the Overall Story, but his thoughts and words about the past kings directly speaks to what T’Challa is struggling with personally.
Then again, I could be conflating the philosophical approach of the movie and storytelling itself with the subjective characters. Also, quite honestly, I see Killmonger as the Change character. M’Baku also changes in the end, and T’Challa is the one who remains steadfast. He questions his resolve when Killmonger finally arrives in Wakanda. But Killmonger and M’Baku both change their stance when it comes to who should be on the throne.
Then again, I’m not nearly as adept with Dramatica as everyone else, so I’ll leave that alone.
Welcome @adanawtn . You’ll love it here. The theory is a whole lot at first. Just take the time to portion the theory into bitesize chunks and take a little piece at a time. Still working for me.
That said, M’baku’s concern is in the realm of Physics. Engaging in the Challenge (Physics) , vying for the throne (Doing or Obtaining concern). This most definitely puts him in the realm of Physics (OS).
Nd’igbo?
So does the motivation behind why M’Baku engages in the challenge and makes a play for the throne not matter when it comes to the Concern? I mean, it’s not so much that M’Baku makes the challenge physically that has the impact on the other characters, but why he’s doing it. But then that would put him in Manipulation.
EDIT: Is this where the PSR comes in? I wonder if the Activity signposts would be explored under the Manipulation types? I wonder if that’s what I’m seeing…
This is what gets me about Dramatica. Sometimes it seems like, depending on how you look at things, anything could be anything. In my head, I know that’s not the case, but I’ve literally spent days going around in circles trying to make different storyforms work.
Nah, I worded it kind of awkwardly there. I meant that T’Challa wants to live up to his father’s reputation in being a good king, which means he’s not really doing anything new. He’s just trying to maintain the status quo. So M’Baku’s perspective on the whole ‘tradition’ thing is closer (but not identical) with what T’Challa is thinking than Killmonger.
Ah, okay. This is interesting. M’Baku definitely changes his mind on the throne thing, but it’s in the first act and he basically just yields the fight. He doesn’t really ‘change’ his perspective so much as give up on one fight. With Killmonger, I think you have to look at him side-by-side with T’Challa.
T’Challa at the beginning of the story is busy focusing on his father’s legacy, and basically resisting doing anything different. He wants to maintain Wakanda’s secrecy, not act unless absolutely necessary, etc. By the end of the story, he’s at the UN announcing Wakanda’s intentions to open outreach centers and help the world.
Killmonger at the beginning of the story (or as close to it as he can be) voices his intentions to liberate those around the world, arming them and essentially burning down Wakanda’s heritage. By the end of the story, he’s still fighting for it. He only gives up when he’s stabbed, and even then, he dies on his own terms.
Of those two, T’Challa is the one that has a complete 180 shift on his perspective as a result of knowing Killmonger. Killmonger was extremely radical, but T’Challa saw some benefit in overhauling the system. T’Challa changed his perspective to a more moderate version of Killmonger’s intent, but Killmonger died maintaining his initial perspective.
I’m going to answer both of these points in one (or try). The hardest thing you’ll have to learn with Dramatica, in my opinion, is to view it as a distinctly unsubjective thing. The storyform itself just presents WHAT the conflict is. You, as the author, have to add the ‘flavour’ and storytelling to it – the HOW, WHY, WHERE and WHEN.
So M’Baku making the challenge for the throne can be seen in the first four levels of the storyform we agreed upon:
Domain of Physics – A ritual fight for the throne.
Concern of Obtaining – Attempting to gain or prevent the other from gaining the throne.
Issue of Attitude – The competing attitudes for how Wakanda should be run that precede the battle.
Problem of Oppose – A rival tribesman openly opposing the rightful heir to the throne.
You can see all four sources of conflict throughout the scene, but the characters’ motivation lies in the storytelling. It’s how you, the author, present that conflict to an audience. Here, M’Baku’s motivation is mostly seen in the Issue and Problem areas, with him voicing his opposition to T’Challa’s rule, mocking Shuri and the other Wakandans. The Domain and Concern just provides the backdrop for the scene.
I completely empathise with your point about going around in circles. It can be unbearably frustrating sometimes. I posted a few weeks back for help with a story I couldn’t work out for four years. And it turned out I had every single throughline in the wrong domain! I’m now steadily going through all of the Dramatica podcasts and watching the movies, taking notes, trying to ‘get’ the difference between a Physics story and a Situation story. We’re all in the same boat. Just keep going, keep asking questions, keep writing and you’ll get it.
The PSR is a subjective look at the storyform, and the PSR for this storyform says that the Activity signposts are explored in terms of the Psychology/Manipulation types, so you might be onto something there!
Ok. Let’s break this down. With regards to the theory, the WHY you seek for his actions is Motivation. This is an OS function for the character(s). The PSR is a subjective view of the entire Storyform. It’s an exploration of Variations present in that narrative.
True about the theory feeling like it could go anyway. But there is usually ONE source of conflict the feels the strongest. And if done right, the other throughlines will naturally fit in. No hassle, or shoehorning anything. That’s the beauty of Dramatica.
M’Baku changes in the end when he joins the final fight. He went from wanting nothing to do with T’Challa and wanting to see someone else take the throne to helping T’Challa get the throne back.
I can see your point there.
Ah! Lightbulb moment. Seeing the breakdown, that makes a lot more sense. And with the PSR connecting Activity to Psychology, that kind of clears things up for me in terms of the motivation thing. Sweet!
Thank you, @jhay!
BTW this has been one of the most confusing parts of the model for me. It’s too easy to think of the MC and IC as having an “argument” – like you and me, having a debate, and one of us changes our minds. This can happen in a grand argument story, but just as often (more often?) it’s easier to think of the IC/MC as using two different approaches to solve problems. In an MC change story, the IC’s way of doing things (approach to solving problems) triggers or forces a change in the MC – whether or not they actually “agree” on the subject matter. (At least, I think this this is right – the DSEs can correct me if I’m wrong).
The Honest Trailer for Black Panther says “the co-IC’s cause the MC to change to their perspective” in as many words at 2:43-3:30 of the video:
I finally got to see this film!
I can tell why everyone liked it so much 
I’ve read all 133 posts and can definitely agree on one thing: T’Challa is the Main Character. 
I’ve read some pretty well-reasoned arguments on both sides of the Do-er/Be-er question, and the relation between the Main Character and Overall Story Throughlines and had an idea about something that might help.
Both Killmonger and T’Challa present opposing views of the sins of the father visited upon the son. One external. One internal. One suffers guilt for the decisions his father made in the Past. The other offers painful Memories of the very same moment in time.
The imbalance from T’Challa’s point-of-view is that he is the son of a king who chose country over people. That is a guilt T’Challa cannot escape from. His Throughline is found in Universe—he is the son of a bad king.
Killmonger, on the other hand, remembers what it was like to run upstairs and find your father murdered. These memories are so painful that they create a drive for revenge in him so great that he thinks of nothing else his entire life. This point-of-view visits imbalance upon others because of his fixation on avenging his father. His Throughline, as Influence Character, is Mind.
Killmonger’s “situation” as cousin to T’Challa offers him a chance at the throne, nothing more. T’Challa’s “fixed attitude” of freezing doesn’t change the fact that his family did awful things to fellow Wakandians in the past.
T’Challa’s personal issue isn’t that he doesn’t step up to the plate and take action-he’s always willibgvto do whatever is asked of him. What does hold him back is his reliance on other people to make decisions for him. He’s king—and yet, he kneels before his father’s image and asks him for guidance—something a king shouldn’t do—at least, that’s the point made in this film.
To me, the clearest dynamic shift between these perspectives is the difference between Memory and the Past. One feels for what happened. The other can’t escape his father’s shame.
This tracks with my (much less well articulated) initial take.
We even see Killmonger in a flashback where he’s inhabiting the memory of what happened in his childhood. I don’t think this is just storytelling – it seems pretty central to driving his motivations.
The thing I wasn’t immediately able to argue for/illustrate was Understanding as the overall concern (though it feels right to me).
Well, here’s the easiest way to figure out the Concerns.
The first is the Main Character perspective. The second is the Overall Story perspective.
And actually, because we’re trying to get an Overall Story or objective perspective, let’s replace T’Challa with his objective role…
Since he–as King, and the son of the King that led them to where they are now–stands for Wakanda.
The Authors of the film did a great job of making sure the answer to both questions was the same thing–as it should be in a Changed Resolve Main Character story.
Answering those will help you skip right past Domain and Concern and land you on the actual Problem and Solution–since both will be the same from either perspective.
I thought that the Problem was Self-Aware – everyone’s problem with Wakanda is that it that it is focused inwardly, on itself, and the Solution is that it must focus on the rest of the world (Aware). I guess I have a hard time separating the MC throughline from that (maybe because he as kine he also represents Wakanda) but it seemed like “going outward” was his personal Solution too, especially insofar is it means rejecting the inward-looking traditions of the Past.
Self-Aware and Aware might work for Focus and Direction, but remember that the Problem is something running along underneath it all - the unspoken “subtext” of the narrative.
Is it really greater Awareness that solves the issue with Wakanda?
What is the very first thing we learn about T’Challa in the beginning? How does this match up with Wakanda as a character on the world stage?
Could the problem for both T’Challa and Wakanda be Inertia? The whole “I never freeze” line, and T’Challa trying to carry on in the same way has his father, while Wakanda is fighting to keep things the same, which could lead to Self-Aware as a Symptom. The challenge from M’Baku that came out of nowhere and upset what should have been a short ceremony. The fact that the Dore Milaje stayed with Killmonger even though they know that he’s a bad dude.
Everyone wants to keep to tradition, and T’Challa is trying to carry on the legacy of his father. And it’s in Change that both T’Challa resolves his angst, and Wakanda survives Killmonger - when T’Challa tells Shuri to turn on the things on the train so that the vibranium would be rendered inert, which technically alters the process of the panther suits and allows T’Challa to beat Killmonger.
Killmonger is, as you say, driven by Desire – both for revenge, and for Black people around the world to rise up with the help of Wakanda’s technology. Giving them the Ability to do that would have satisfied that drive.
I can’t remember how the Relationship Story P/S and F/D are selected, but Conceptualizing makes sense for the Relationship Story as both T’Challa and Killmonger have a different concept of what Wakanda and helping the world would look like, and that is the focal point of the relationship between them.
When it comes to the difference between Inertia and Change - Inertia is flow and keeping things going. Change, as an element, is actually about adapting or shifting oneself, a remolding into all different things.
The only reason I bring it up is because the Change you suggest sounds more like an instance of Story Outcome or Main Character Resolve. It’s like the difference between obtaining a Goal (small o goal) and Obtaining as a Goal (big o goal).
A change isn’t Change - changing is Change. Remember that these Elements are processes - little engines of conflict, so it’s the act of changing that would describe a Change element.