I feel this process can help shed more light on the subgenres
So, yeah, if I were going to delve deep into this I’d need to watch a lot more movies with this specifically in mind. What i’ve decided is that I’m comfortable with the idea that each Concern can be explored in a way that looks like KTAD, or I actually prefer Universe, Physics, Psychology, Mind. But while I can take something like your descriptions of Expose or Inception stories and see how they fit, I have a hard time using the same idea to describe what one of the missing genres looks like.
Like Mike, I think the story I’m currently looking at would fall in the missing genre under Conceiving. And I can see the three that are present and even line them up to specific Sign Posts. When I look at the Sign Post that’s missing a sub genre description, I can kind of fill in the missing gap, but can’t really describe it. It doesn’t help that this is probably one of the weakest Sign Posts as far as the conflict I’ve used it to create.
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Totally. As you say, you need to see more of the movies to figure it out.
To try and gauge it from the table of elements is impossible because it’s too small a sample size. Since you’re only seeing the actual element (say, Expediency), you miss out on the actual pattern of context (for example: ‘these six Conceiving stories deal with people doing X’, etc.), so it’s hard to tell if it is a popular ‘subgenre’ of story, or if it’s just your mind creating one particular story and illustrating it a certain way. It becomes guesswork.
The new strategy for the Mind domain will make finding those missing genres easier, I’m very confident. Once Universe is done, I’ll go through Psychology and Physics again and see if we can find those missing ones, but for now, there’s not really too much that can be done to find them until I have the notes from the ‘state’ domains.
Update on Mind: I’ll have it posted at the weekend, but there will be few ‘consequences’ until Universe is done, and I’m having a hell of a hard time trying to define the Preconscious subgenres. My brain is getting a major, major workout on these ones.
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it’s been mentioned a few times that scenes should have something Universal, Physical, Attitudinal, and Psychological to round them out. I’m kind of looking at what you’re doing with that same idea, that each Concern (and every level, really) can have aspects of each of these. So Conceiving, for instance can be explored with a Universal aspect, a Physical one, and so on.
So it would seem a story that explores Universal aspects of Concieving will treat the Conceiving of ideas as something external and static. I would assume this would look like getting an idea about an external state (can you believe the government would be that corrupt? I’m shocked, I tell you) or maybe it would look like someone getting an idea would be the external state (the government is Conceiving of corruption). Either way, this gives us something to look at, something to explore, to uncover. That’s your Expose stories.
Conceiving being explored with a Mind aspect, then, would treat coming up with ideas as something internal and static. If you uncover an idea in someone else’s mind-rather than showing them it exists externally as in Expose stories—then you have what looks like planting ideas in the minds of others. This would be your Inception stories.
Tell me if any of that sounds too goofy, or like I’m trying too hard. Personally, I’m kinda digging it at this point.
But now we get to Conceiving being explored with a Physics aspect. Coming up with ideas is treated as external and changing. This sounds like your Idea stories about the journey to come up with an idea. Like maybe the writer trying to conceive of the next great literary work has to put in some physical work to get to that idea, reading, studying, meeting middle Americans and seeing what the human condition is so that he can properly conceive of this masterpiece. I’m still kind of on board here, but feel like I’m starting to lose it.
Then we get to Conceiving being explored with a Psychology aspect. Conceiving treated as internal and changing. This seems to be the quad that carries all the vertical rise in my mind. When I think of internal ideas that change I think of improvising and conspiracy theories that are always changing to include new and seemingly contradictory information. But I don’t know. I don’t really feel like that captures what it should be at all.
I’ve only tried this with Conceiving so far. I’ve glanced at a few others and i think I could do the same thing with some of the other Concerns, but I haven’t really sat down and tried yet.
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Okay, so here’s my best attempt to predict the final Conceiving sub genre.
The Psychology aspect of Conceiving should be about the behavior of coming up with an idea, or coming up with ideas about behaviors. It’s also about the Desire or Time of coming up with ideas. So it’s about changing. Changing the way one comes up with ideas, changing what ideas one comes up with.
Where Inception stories are about uncovering the ideas in one’s mind, Psychology-Conceiving stories would be about the change in those ideas. So maybe a story about getting one to stop conceiving of the government as the enemy and start conceiving of the government as the great protector.
Where Idea stories are about the physics of coming up with an idea, Psychology-Conceiving stories are about behaviors in regards to coming up with an idea. So maybe a story where one starts out trying to conceive of the next great novel, but ends up conceiving of personal service as the greatest way to have a positive change on society. Or maybe a story where one starts out with ideas about being the champion, but in the end decides it’s not important that you win, but that you did your best and played by the rules.
And remember, this is also the Expediency aspect of Conceiving, so stories about coming up with ideas about the most efficient course considering repercussions, or stories about what one should do. So does this work? Can you see that being a valid sub genre? And what would you call it?
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this works, there’s tkad happening through all the types, all I’d say for now is contextual subgenres seem to be variations on the static and progressive plot points. So the tkad is to be applied with regards to the types, static and progressive plot points.
I’ll jump in later on and see how I can help define the story concern and story consequence in terms of tkad for each term.
Key variables are the story concern, story consequence, the dramatica types and application of ktad.
also, dramatica being fractal, I’m sure there’s tkad underneath the subgenres, we may unearthing sub-subgenres in the future but I think we shouldn’t unearth that level of contextual subgenres yet.
I’m also asking myself, these contextual sub genres seem to want to form a quad of sorts, meaning there’s companion, dependent, associative and dynamic relationship to be formed from each quad of contextual sub genres.
Coming up with a quad of subgenres of each type means those quads will evolve into some higher level relationship between the contextual subgenres once they are completed.
I was thinking, without being able to satisfy all quad operations, we maybe creating gists and calling them subgenres.
It sounds good, and I can see where you’re coming from – your analysis of the other types is totally right. You may well be right on the fourth, but I’d need the examples of analysed stories to back it up to ensure it’s not overlapping with another ‘kind’ of story or mistyped.
I don’t think it’s worth looking that deep, honestly. A little like how Chris and Melanie restricted the scope of the software, I think this needs to have a defining ‘scope’. Otherwise, it’ll just become subgenres within subgenres, with far too much information and too many levels to do anything particularly helpful. I can imagine some writers getting obsessive over fitting everything in, to the detriment of their work.
Well, the ‘subgenres’ are more like storytelling conventions than actual structural points. So, to that degree, they are gists. They’re ways of colouring a throughline. You can write a Western Noir as a Defense story, but also as a Legacy story. It’s just whichever way you want to tell your story.
I’m gonna ask to just hold off on the TKAD/missing subgenre talk for a little bit until all four domains have been done and the others updated accordingly. I’ll explain exactly why when I post the Mind subgenres in a couple of days, but I just don’t want anyone getting too far ahead right now. It’s highly likely some of the missing ones will turn up very, very soon and if not, we’ll deal with it later.
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Holding off. After coming up with a prediction for the fourth conceiving sub, I do feel like the storyform I’m working on would fit into that fourth type. And now you can bet I’m going to be trying to predict the rest of the sub genres before you post them! But I’ll keep those to myself.
I will say I’m even more anxious for the rest to be posted now, though, so I can talk about the way some of them were found. There’s one or two that seem like they could be combined under, say K-Becoming, or that could maybe be separated out into an A and D sub. But, again, that’s necessarily assuming these sub genres can be predicted in that fashion.
For what it’s worth, part of the reason I’m sticking to the idea that they can be predicted (other than, again, I just haven’t put in the time to observe them as you have), is because it seems a lot like a notion I had that each process could have conflict of 4 different types. So for instance, a Physics process could have conflict that looks like physics, Universe, Mind, or psychology.
Anyway, that’s all I’ll say for now. Thanks for all the hard work you’re doing with this, @jhay. These sub genres seem like they could become an indispensable tool real quick.
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Please do! Make a lot of notes, please!
Honestly, part of the reason I don’t want you to post them before I get there is because I don’t want to be influenced by your findings (especially since I’m relatively ignorant of TKAD). You made a very compelling argument, and I have no doubt you’re onto something, so I want to see if my research lines up with your theory!
This is exciting! 
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Meet the Mind quad!
I can honestly say, this was the hardest one yet. Not only in terms of the short number of stories available, but the actual content of the stories. With a few exceptions (The Wizard of Oz, Zootopia), these stories were quite often very dark and unpleasant. Four of the stories dealt with inappropriate sexual conduct, for example — and three of those involved, shall we say, inappropriate family relationships. So NOT a fun one to study for someone that likes to stay in the lighter end of the ‘story pool’. But now that it’s over, I’m learning to laugh again. Some important notes before we begin:
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There are no consequences at present. I haven’t seen enough Universe movies to have notes on those, so expect them with the Universe set! Sorry about that.
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I had to think outside the box on this one, due to the shortage of Mind stories. For example, all four of the Conscious stories (except for Home Alone, which we’ll get to in a second) line up with one subgenre. Likewise, 97% of the Subconscious stories line up with one subgenre. To avoid making the shortest post ever, I turned to the MC concerns for some assistance, as they line up fairly well. So some don’t have OS links yet, but they feel right to me.
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All of the concerns are lacking at least one subgenre. For some (Preconscious and Subconscious), I think I know what they are, but they’re very similar to what’s there already so until I can clearly see a difference, I’ve skipped them. I’ll happily discuss and share those in the responses later, if so desired.
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Home Alone. Of all of the stories typed so far, this is the only one that has felt ‘off’. When making notes on story points, it felt like I was stretching more often than not. To me, it felt much more like a ‘Defense’ story in the Doing quad than anything else. Hopefully, when we have all four Domain quads completed, we can have another discussion to confirm if that one belongs here or not. But I haven’t included it in the below Mind subgenres because my intuition is telling me that it’s not in the right place at the minute.
Any notes/questions, I welcome them!
Also, an important note for @jhull: I can’t edit the original posts for some reason? So I won’t be able to make changes or update the links. Not sure what to do about that, so I’ll just mention it here and rely on your continuing wisdom.
#Mind
Conscious
As a Concern/Goal
CONSENSUS STORIES: stories where characters deliberate to come to a consensus or conclusion.
The Consensus Story frequently deals with the considerations and debate that ultimately leads to a consensus or conclusion, such as an art critic considering whether or not modern art is ‘art’, or politicians deliberating whether or not a visibly unfit-to-govern figure should be allowed to sit on the supreme court. 12 Angry Men trying to come to a unanimous jury consensus; coming to a consensus on what to do with The Client; and coming to a conclusion about a reasonable Doubt all explore the difficulties in coming to a consensus or conclusion.
OS EXAMPLES: 12 Angry Men; The Client; Doubt.
MC EXAMPLES: Brief Encounter.
DYNAMIC PAIR: Introspective stories, stories where characters struggle to overcome their introspective deliberations.
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INTROSPECTIVE STORIES: stories where characters struggle to overcome their introspective deliberations or internal thoughts.
The Introspective Story frequently deals with the effects of characters that are firmly in their own heads, such as a therapist who is too busy considering what she’s thinking to truly pay attention, or a group of non-communicative daydreaming nuclear scientists who are too busy thinking about what other’s are thinking to work together effectively. Amélie’s introverted thoughts and daydreams; Mark Zuckerberg’s obsessive internal non-communications in The Social Network, and the focus on observation and internal thought in La Dolce Vita all explore the problems of introspective and non-communicative thought.
OS EXAMPLES: To be confirmed.
MC EXAMPLES: Amélie; La Dolce Vita; The Lives of Others; The Social Network.
DYNAMIC PAIR: Consensus stories, stories where characters deliberate to come to a consensus or conclusion.
Memory
As a Concern/Goal
RECOLLECTION STORIES: stories where characters attempt to recall an important or key event or series of events.
The Recollection Story frequently deals with the efforts to remember or recall something of note, such as a woman attempting to recall the final words of her spy husband, or a victim recalling a tragic event as part of sworn testimony. Recalling who has behaved strangely in The Crucible; giving an honest recollection of an evening in To Kill a Mockingbird, and remembering ‘what was taken’ in Westworld: Kiksuya all illustrate the experience of recalling something important.
OS EXAMPLES: The Crucible; To Kill a Mockingbird; Westworld: Kiksuya
MC EXAMPLES: American History X; Being There; The Bourne Identity; Candida; Conspiracy Theory; A Doll’s house; Get Out; her; The Others; The Sixth Sense
DYNAMIC PAIR: Reminder stories, stories where characters are purposely reminded or remind others of something forgotten.
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REMINDER STORIES: stories where characters are purposely reminded or remind others of something forgotten.
The Reminder Story often deals with a forced or otherwise outside reminder of something key that has been forgotten, such as a lonely woman being reminded of her one great love, or a faded star reminding of her once-bright career. Trying to remind Anna of a time and place When Marnie Was There is an example of the challenges in reminding someone of something forgotten.
OS EXAMPLES: When Marnie Was There.
MC EXAMPLES: 45 Years; The Accountant; Arrival; Batman Begins; Sex and the City; What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?
DYNAMIC PAIR: Recollection stories, stories where characters attempt to recall an important or key event or series of events.
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MAINTENANCE STORIES: stories where characters are seeking to maintain or move on from a specific memory.
The Maintenance Story frequently deals with attempts to move on from, or maintain, a specific memory, such as a group of protestors campaigning to stop commemorating the memory of slave-owning nationalists, or a woman trying to keep the memory of her grandfather alive. Trying to overcome The Babadook by moving on from a tragic memory, and trying to maintain the memory of the day that JFK died in The House of Yes explore the difficulties in maintaining or moving on.
OS EXAMPLES: The Babadook; The House of Yes.
MC EXAMPLES: To be confirmed.
DYNAMIC PAIR: To be confirmed.
Preconscious
As a Concern/Goal
DISCIPLINE STORIES: stories where characters work or struggle to maintain control over their natural impulses.
The Discipline Story frequently deals with attempts to keep control over one’s natural human instincts, such as a race horse trying not to lose its temper when whipped by a jockey, or a human statue fighting to avoid sneezing during a busy gallery opening. Trying not to kill any more kids In Bruges; trying not to fall prey to your predator instincts in Zootopia, and trying to maintain one’s rationality in the face of the Nazis in The Sound of Music all illustrate the difficulties in maintaining control over one’s natural instincts.
OS EXAMPLES: A Bronx Tale; In Bruges; The Sound of Music (substory); Zootopia.
MC EXAMPLES: American Sniper; The Imitation Game; The King’s Speech; The Sting.
DYNAMIC PAIR: To be confirmed.
Subconscious
As a Concern/Goal
HEART’S DESIRE STORIES: stories where characters pursue their inner desires or longings.
The Heart’s Desire Story frequently deals with the embrace or struggle to embrace one’s inner desires, such as a divorced mother struggling with her forbidden feelings for her daughter’s teacher, or a misogynist struggling to accept that he’s in love with a feminist. Being happy in a marriage in The Philadelphia Story; embracing true love When Harry Met Sally, and chasing one’s deepest wishes from The Wizard of Oz all illustrate the experience of chasing the heart’s desire.
OS EXAMPLES: Barefoot in the Park; The Great Gatsby; Othello; The Philadelphia Story; Splendor in the Grass; When Harry Met Sally; The Wizard of Oz
MC EXAMPLES: Breakfast at Tiffany’s; Collateral; Moulin Rouge!; My Best Friend’s Wedding; Notting Hill; Pitch Perfect; The Quiet Man; Rosemary’s baby; The Wedding Banquet
DYNAMIC PAIR: Encouragement stories, stories where characters encourage or discourage others, or are encouraged or discouraged themselves.
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ENCOURAGEMENT STORIES: stories where characters encourage or discourage others, or are encouraged or discouraged themselves.
The Encouragement Story frequently deals with the encouragement or discouragement for or by others to pursue, protect, etc., such as a friendly homeless man who spends his days encouraging local Wall Street bankers and politicians to make things better for the little guy, or a teacher determined to discourage his children from being rule-breakers and groundbreakers. Giving an encouraging and protective push to all of the talented kids while Searching for Bobby Fisher, encouraging your students to follow their dreams while running a Glee club, and enthusiastically listening to people’s problems while having a drink with Harvey all illustrate the experience of encouraging others.
OS EXAMPLES: Searching for Bobby Fisher
MC EXAMPLES: Glee; Harvey.
DYNAMIC PAIR: Heart’s Desire stories, stories where characters pursue their inner desires or longings.
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REVIVAL STORIES: stories where long-dormant characters are forced to handle newly-reawakened passions.
The Revival Story often deals with the efforts of characters attempting to handle newly-surfaced feelings they’ve long been without, such as a group of jaded chess players who begin to rediscover their passion for life when they fall in love, or a retired and closed-off artist who rediscovers his passion for music in a foreign country. Regaining a passion for life after helping a flighty heiress with Bringing Up Baby; opening up to the world after meeting E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial, and rediscovering the potential for love in a bar in Casablanca all explore the challenges faced when confronted with reawakened passions.
OS EXAMPLES: To be confirmed.
MC EXAMPLES: Blade Runner; Bringing Up Baby; Casablanca; E.T.; Let the Right One In; What’s Up, Doc?
DYNAMIC PAIR: To be confirmed.
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YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! Had to thank you first! Now I’m going back up to check it out.
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amazing stuff, this will surely help expand my creative abilities
I desire discussion about what you think the fourth Subconscious subgenre is.
Rather than going Concern by Concern to try to predict what you’re going to find, I’m trying to develop a description of each of KTAD that can be applied to each Concern to produce a description/prediction of what that subgenre will look like. And I’m largely using phrasing from the descriptions you’ve already given.
I think what I’ve got so far is doing a pretty good job of confirming you and actingpowers suspicion that there should be four subgenres that correlate to KTAD, but I’m also running into a couple of things that are making it hard to precisely predict how a subgenre will be handled. The big thing is that these subgenres seem to be more about storytelling than the form itself (like you mentioned, Collateral and Finding Nemo have the same form but different subgenre) so it really opens up how any one subgenre can be explored. But I’ll save that until you’ve posted everything and ask for that input.
Anyway, I’d like to know what you think the fourth Subconscious subgenre is so I can compare to the method I’m trying to build.
All of the remaining (untyped) Subconscious stories are MC throughlines, but they all deal with characters struggling with their fears. So Columbus in Zombieland being afraid of everything; the Americans being afraid of the government in Sicko; Mitch worrying that he’s peaked in City Slickers.
But, to me, that feels very similar to the Heart’s Desire story and could be the negative form of that subgenre (Four Weddings and a Funeral has a negative variation on that type which sees Hugh Grant running from his feelings). That said, running away from something because you’re scared is a very different thing, but I’m just not so sure that it’s the fourth subgenre.
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Can I ask if you might have seen a particular type of story if I don’t say anything about why or how I came up with it? Feel free to tell me to wait if you’re concerned about affecting your own process.
Of course! That would be absolutely fine by me!
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First, I originally said I agreed that you were looking at another version of Hearts Desire stories and then realized you were pointing out Four Weddings as a negative version of Hearts Desire because he was running. That said, I’m not clear on the ‘struggling with their fears’ description. I’m familiar with Zombieland, but it’s been way too long since I’ve seen City Slickers. How do you see Columbus struggling with his fears? It’s not that he’s running from them or trying to pursue them in an attempt to overcome them, right? And he’s not being encouraged to change them or having to deal with some newly reawakened fear. So he just kind of is afraid, right? His dealing with it is just being prepared to handle the situation when something happens, and that’s why he has all his rules. So that might fit in what I’m thinking would be a fourth category.
Did you see any stories that deal with characters that struggle because they don’t know what they want and that’s where their problems come from? Like someone who doesn’t know what they want makes a bad choice or is unable to make a choice until they find out what they want?
Or maybe they do know what they want and knowing what they want causes an issue? Just off the top of my head, I’m thinking (and I don’t think this is a GAS, and if it is I don’t know the storyform so maybe not a great example) Hermey the elf on the Rudolph movie. He has a passion for dentistry and this causes all the other elves to make fun of him. I guess that could be a negative of an Encouragment story if they were actively trying to discourage him from being a dentist, but I don’t think they are. I think they’re just making fun of him for wanting to.
It could also be that someone is hiding what they want. The easiest off the top of my head example would be a character that’s gay but doesn’t want anyone else to know. Or maybe something like an older man with a love for a children’s cartoon about ponies who doesn’t want to admit it.
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