# Group online analysis of A Man For All Seasons **URL:** \ **Category:** Analysis and Review\ **Created:** [July 8, 2016, 3:00am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655 "2016-07-08T03:00:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![LunarDynasty](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/lunardynasty/32/2515_2.png) [@LunarDynasty](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/LunarDynasty)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2016, 10:44am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/122 "2016-08-08T10:44:49Z")
Okay, that sells me on Norfolk’s `Situation`: The duke, because of his station and place in England, is under scrutiny and could suffer from being associated with More, unless the latter violates his conscience and takes the Oath. So rather than give in, More pushes Norfolk away. Not quite sold on `Activity` as the domain of conflict in their `Relationship` yet. I don’t think bulldogs or differences of worship are really generating friction between them. Is it perhaps _abstaining_ from `Activity` that puts pressure on their friendship? Norfolk takes the oath, he works in the government, he hashes out cases with Cromwell, he does the King’s bidding – and More does none of it. He purposefully retires from these things. He _was_ participating, but now he’s not, and what’s worse he won’t say why. More’s resignation from the Chancellorship seems to signal a major turn in their friendship. In any case, they seem to measure the relationship by outward deeds and acts, and the duke is having trouble making sense of More’s. Also, different ways of thinking (i.e. `Manipulation`) has never created problems between them in the past - they’re clearly different thinkers and value different things, but they’ve been long friends. It isn’t until More’s actions start diverging from the usual that their friendship suffers (thus `Activity`). ---
**Author:** ![mlucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mlucas/32/275_2.png) [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/123 "2016-08-08T14:20:37Z")
I think you’ve nailed it Brant. Awesome. Even your phrase “he won’t say why” is an example of More’s abstaining from an `Activity` that causes trouble between them. I had mentioned “governing” in an earlier post but couldn’t figure out how it caused friction between them. Much more clear now! The “opposite sides of the same coin” view of IC vs. MC is also becoming more clear. The Duke and the Chancellor, both powerful government figures. But because of Norfolk’s situation as a noble, he must perform the activities you mentioned (governing, doing the King’s bidding). While because of Thomas’s deep convictions (fixed attitude), he must abstain from the same activities. ---
**Author:** ![jhull](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jhull/32/3_2.png) [@jhull](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jhull)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/124 "2016-08-08T21:13:15Z")
Among other things I think Norfolk taking a swing at More is a nice encoding for `Activity` in the `Relationship Story Throughline`! The other Throughlines sound just as good - with the OS in `Manipulation` (all about manipulating More, the papacy, the church in England, etc.), the MC in `Fixed Attitude` (snooty know-it-all), and the IC in `Situation` (upwardly mobile buddy). Just my two cents - but I think everyone is on the right track. The question now is… …what’s the `Concern`? ---
**Author:** ![LunarDynasty](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/lunardynasty/32/2515_2.png) [@LunarDynasty](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/LunarDynasty)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/125 "2016-08-08T23:50:18Z")
I think `Conceiving` for the OS. Henry works to persuade others to conceive of a church without the papacy, of an England where he can do what’s best for the country (and/or himself). > KING: Then you see your way clear to me? > MORE: That you should put away Queen Catherine, Sire? Alas, as I think of it, I see so clearly that I cannot come with Your Grace, that my endeavor is not to think of it at all. > KING: Then you haven’t thought enough! If he can just get everyone around to the idea that his way is the best way, then he won’t need to “brook opposition.” Once everyone agrees with Henry’s vision then the imprisonings and executions will end. ---
**Author:** ![mlucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mlucas/32/275_2.png) [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/126 "2016-08-09T02:27:09Z")
Can I ask if the common practice when doing a group analysis is to just consider one throughline Concern on its own first? Or do you look at how the choice (e.g. upper-left element of quads, like `Conceiving`) affects all throughlines? I actually liked `Conceptualizing (Developing a Plan)` for the OS. It seemed like everyone had the idea for the solution in mind – ensure everyone takes the Oath. But because of More’s reticence, everyone was concerned with “how do we get More to capitulate? we need a plan!” This planning (and re-planning) involved everyone: King Henry, Cromwell, Rich, Norfolk, even Meg and Alice (More’s wife). And I could see More’s explanations to people about the law and his conscience as trying to get people to Conceptualize his ideas. For example, the way he explained to Meg about taking an oath being like holding his own self like water in his hands … trying to get her to conceptualize his idea of it. (But, maybe I’m using too much of the English definition of conceptualize, rather than the Dramatica definition.) HOWEVER, looking at what this does to the other Throughlines (not sure if I’m supposed to be doing this yet, so apologies if I’m getting ahead) … I’m no longer convinced. RS I could see definitely see as `Understanding` but the MC and IC Concerns of `Memories` and `The Past` do not seem to fit. ---
**Author:** ![jhull](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jhull/32/3_2.png) [@jhull](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jhull)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/127 "2016-08-09T02:41:31Z")
I would do all four at once. ---
**Author:** ![LunarDynasty](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/lunardynasty/32/2515_2.png) [@LunarDynasty](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/LunarDynasty)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 6:51am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/128 "2016-08-09T06:51:06Z")
The whole package is definitely part of the reason why I think `Conceiving` works best for the OS, as it places the IC in `Present` and the MC in `Conscious`. Norfolk _is_ a noble, and is expected to toe the line like one, right here right now. And I can’t see how the other concerns under `Fixed Attitude` could fit Thomas More better than `Conscious`: > Because what matters is that I believe it, or rather, no… not that I believe it, but that **“I”** believe it. ---
**Author:** ![mlucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mlucas/32/275_2.png) [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/129 "2016-08-09T14:26:04Z")
Thanks guys. Yes I absolutely agree … the newer term of `Contemplation` for `Conscious` also sheds light on how it fits for More. Several times when faced with difficulty he would stop to put his head down and contemplate, but this generally caused more trouble (e.g. during the long conversation with King Henry, or when he was mulling over what to do with the bribe-gifted cup). Also I reviewed the Dramatica definitions and gists and I think I can see how `Conceiving` fits better for OS than `Conceptualizing` … if you really look at where the conflict is coming _from_ you see: - Henry wants his Chancellor (first Wolsely, then More) to come up with an idea on how he can divorce Katherine - Brant’s point above about Henry trying to get everyone to conceive of a church without the papacy, to get them to see his vision - More’s inability to conceive of a way to obey his King, though he tries: ALICE: You crossed him! … Why? MORE: I couldn’t find the other way. - everyone else’s difficulty conceiving why More won’t capitulate - and finally … **Henry’s inability to _conceive_ a healthy heir with Katherine!!!** 🙂 Not sure if this properly fits Dramatica’s `Conceiving (an idea)` but it’s definitely one of the biggest overall story concerns. And a baby is “something fresh, something new” like an idea… ---
**Author:** ![LunarDynasty](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/lunardynasty/32/2515_2.png) [@LunarDynasty](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/LunarDynasty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 8:41am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/130 "2016-08-10T08:41:07Z")
Haha, yeah `Conceiving` is all about the internal process of new ideas. The external version you describe (impotency / barrenness) would better fit a concern under `Situation` if it were the source of conflict in the story. You bring up an important point, because it would be easy to think the troubles in _A Man For All Seasons_ are rooted in Katherine’s inability to give Henry an heir. So why isn’t the OS in `Situation`? The script comes right out and tells us: > WOLSEY: The King wants a son; what are you going to do about it? > MORE: I’m very sure the King needs no advice from me on what to do about it. The problem is not whether Henry can sire an son. It’s an inequity, to be sure, but it’s not what’s stirring the hornet’s nest, as More points out. The problem is whether Henry can manipulate everyone (the Pope, the nobility, the whole of England) to accept his plan for the Tudor dynasty, marrying / divorcing whomever he wants at his behest. Anyway, I know this is a bit redundant regarding the domains, but I enjoyed how the script carefully (and early on) specified the source of trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Rod](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/rod/32/240_2.png) [@Rod](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Rod)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 12:40pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/131 "2016-08-10T12:40:00Z")
> [@mlucas](#): > > Or do you look at how the choice (e.g. upper-left element of quads, like Conceiving) affects all throughlines? It’s definitely a good idea to look at how your choices affect each throughline, not only for the Concern but for other story points as well. Every choice has its impact. When everything seems to line up (as well as possible) in the other throughlines, you know you’re getting closer. ---
**Author:** ![mlucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mlucas/32/275_2.png) [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/132 "2016-08-10T14:10:27Z")
Thanks Brant, excellent points, that helps solidify things. @Rod – thanks, makes sense. I know that at some points during analysis it helps to consider things separately (like first determining throughline titles, and assigning Domains one at a time) because trying to consider everything at once can be overwhelming and make it easier to miss the essence of a story point or throughline. But I guess we’re at the point now where we need to consider the impacts of our choices! What’s next? I think we’ve successfully argued the Overall Story Concern of `Conceiving` and Main Character Concern of `Conscious (Contemplation)`. We still need to back up Relationship Story Concern of `Understanding`, and a bit more detail on Influence Character Concern of `The Present` would be nice. ---
**Author:** ![LunarDynasty](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/lunardynasty/32/2515_2.png) [@LunarDynasty](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/LunarDynasty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/133 "2016-08-10T22:27:03Z")
The Relationship Concern is actually `Learning (Gathering Information)`, as it resides in the lower-right quadrant like the other concerns in their respective domains. As Norfolk becomes more involved in investigating More’s opinions, their relationship continues to sour. He even senses that `Gathering Information` will create problems for his friend when he tells Cromwell, “But he’s silent…why not leave him silent? I still say, let sleeping dogs lie.” Also: > DUKE: You’re dangerous to know. > MORE: Then don’t know me. ---
**Author:** ![mlucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mlucas/32/275_2.png) [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/134 "2016-08-11T02:51:21Z")
Sorry, my bad, I was analyzing some other stories with RS Concern of Understanding and had that on the brain, I guess! Your illustrations sound great. Also, I wanted to ask if `Learning` of something external that puts pressure on their relationship would make sense as the Concern. Something like: As they learn that More is close to being charged with treason – that it is dangerous to be associated with him – they realize they can no longer remain friends. ---
**Author:** ![LunarDynasty](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/lunardynasty/32/2515_2.png) [@LunarDynasty](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/LunarDynasty)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 10:03am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/135 "2016-08-11T10:03:47Z")
That’s more or less correct. The important thing to remember with `Learning` is that the concern is about the _process_ of gathering info rather than the info itself. It’s about _how_ one is learning and not _what_ is being learned. It’s like a guy taking a night class in his favorite topic - his wife doesn’t have a problem with him pursuing his interests (whatever they may be) but did he have to choose a class where the only slot was on their date night? ---
**Author:** ![mlucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mlucas/32/275_2.png) [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/136 "2016-08-11T13:53:37Z")
Thanks for taking the time to help me on that, Brant. I think I should stick to the newer term `Gathering Information` to help me keep that distinction. (Of course I’d read the definition a dozen times before but nothing makes it stick like actually trying to apply it!) So maybe the strain on the relationship is because of _how_ they learn of the danger More has put himself (and anyone associated with him) in. They keep learning through underhanded ways – threats from Cromwell, etc. It would be better if they could learn straight from the source (the King) or from each other. In fact I think the scenes go like this: 1. Cromwell tells Norfolk “The King particularly wishes you to be active in this matter of Sir Thomas.” Norfolk is annoyed that Cromwell is telling him that, rather than the King: “He’s not told me that.” Cromwell: “Indeed? He told me.” The scene ends with Norfolk asking Cromwell if he’s threatening him, to which Cromwell replies “My dear Norfolk, this isn’t Spain. It’s England!” 2. Then we have the scene where Cromwell sits down with More to tell him how bad his position is, culminating in “Then know that the King commands me to charge you, in his name, with great ingratitude! And to tell you that there never was, nor could be, so villainous a servant, nor so traitorous a subject, as yourself!” 3. Next, the big Relationship Story scene where the “You’re dangerous to know” quote is from. They discuss ending the friendship, argue, and Norfolk takes a swing at More. Not that the impact of the Concern has to be shown in the immediate next scene, but the fact they were organized like that might be a hint at author’s intent. So you could almost codify the RS Concern as “Learning of their danger _through Cromwell’s threats_”. ---
**Author:** ![LunarDynasty](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/lunardynasty/32/2515_2.png) [@LunarDynasty](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/LunarDynasty)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/137 "2016-08-11T14:54:24Z")
Everyone on this thread agreed that there seems to be a hand-off or two in the IC perspective, and the Cromwell interrogation business may well be part of it. In any case, well-encoded stories slide effortlessly from one story point to another – plenty of it in Bolt’s script. Are there any differing suggestions on the `Concerns` from everyone else? Mike and I are leaning toward Conceiving / Learning / Conscious / Present. @Prish @Rod @jhull ---
**Author:** ![Prish](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/prish/32/33_2.png) [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/138 "2016-08-11T14:54:55Z")
> [@jhull](#): > > IC in Situation (upwardly mobile buddy Jim, would it work the same to say hanging on buddy or grasping at the edge of the cliff as pal gets tossed off it buddy or grabbing a hold of the lifeboat buddy? ---
**Author:** ![Prish](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/prish/32/33_2.png) [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/139 "2016-08-11T14:57:09Z")
I’m doing catch up. Do you post the so far current storyform results, somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![LunarDynasty](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/lunardynasty/32/2515_2.png) [@LunarDynasty](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/LunarDynasty)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/140 "2016-08-11T16:00:59Z")
Here’s the consensus thus far: - RESOLVE: Steadfast - GROWTH: Stop - APPROACH: Be-er - PS STYLE: Linear - DRIVER: Decision - LIMIT: Optionlock - OUTCOME: Failure - JUDGMENT: Good - OS DOMAIN: Psychology - OS CONCERN: Conceiving ---
**Author:** ![Prish](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/prish/32/33_2.png) [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655/141 "2016-08-11T17:28:44Z")
“taking a swing at More is a nice encoding for Activity”…and that does fit the restrained physicality of the film. [Previous page](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655.md?page=6) [Next page](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/group-online-analysis-of-a-man-for-all-seasons/655.md?page=8)