You might be right about that. mulling things over…
Out of the sixteen possibilities for for the Problem elements, here are the sets I think could work:
OS Issue: Permission
- OS - IC - RS Problem:
Certainty - MC Problem:
Deduction - OS - MC Symptom:
Acceptance
This is essentially what I suggested previously: Henry et al aren’t satisfied with what could be true, they must get to the bottom of what is true. More has determined that there is only one course of action he can take and simultaneously preserve his conscience and save his skin. And both the cast and More see problems with letting things slide, so they respond with resistance.
OS Issue: Expediency
- OS - IC - RS Problem:
Reduction - MC Problem:
Probability - OS - MC Symptom:
Inaction
Cromwell shows problematic Reduction in the final trial when he gives the probability of what More’s silence “betokens” the weight of certainty (see Dramatica definition of Reduction). This general reliance on narrowing down probabilities and then putting faith in them stirs up the inquisitions throughout the story.
More’s reliance on Probability leaves him vulnerable to the Possibilities he overlooks, believing it is unlikely he will be arrested or martyred if he stays quiet.
And on Inaction: Henry and his cronies believe that standing aside and waiting for the Tudor line to die out will spell trouble for England, so in their efforts to secure the dynasty they preempt interference (Wolsey’s suggestion to seize church property, putting an end to the rumors surrounding More’s resignation, etc.). Meanwhile, More focuses on how his own Inaction puts friends and families in danger and so he prompts them to emotionally or physically distance themselves from him.
My presence on the forum will be infrequent over the next couple of weeks, but we’re very close! @jhull and @Rod, if you’d like to chime in with your thoughts on the final questions of OS Issue and Problem, we could tie this up soon.
Out of those two, do you have a preference?
I’m starting to come around to your OS - IC - RS Problem of Certainty now. Funny thing, I had actually selected that storyform and started to post about it, but had trouble justifying some things and thought Potentiality worked better. (Note that “fearing the potential” of something and “needing to be certain” are almost the same thing.) Anyway:
- More is certain that Rich is not a good employee; this causes problems because he doesn’t really give him a chance
- In the scene towards the end where King Henry thinks he sees More at his wedding, and sort of makes a fool of himself … was this driven by his being certain that it was Thomas? Or by the potential of it being Thomas? I think maybe he must have been certain, or he wanted to be certain so badly that he exposed himself to embarrassment.
Could Henry have been certain More would come around (doesn’t night turn into day?), and More certain he could sidestep the kid…errr…the king? I went on a tour for historical fiction writers, and that would fit historical possibilities.
As far as I recall…and it has been awhile…but I’m pretty sure that the OS Symptom was Acceptance and the OS Response was Non-Acceptance, which I think matches up with @LunarDynasty’s first option above.
That puts the OS Problem in Certainty which is certainly a problem for everyone…
Hey @mlucas, sorry I haven’t been around to chime in. I haven’t seen or read this, so I don’t have much to add.
No problem Mike. Thanks for taking a peek!
Not sure if @LunarDynasty Brant will be around much for a while, and I think maybe @Rod might be away too? I was thinking of trying to work with the OS Problem Certainty storyform, trying to illustrate the various appreciations of that one throughline at a time. @Prish are you interested in trying that? We could try to divide and conquer a bit…
I’m interested, so let us know the next step.
We should probably end this soon, so we can make it an official storyform. We have one, yes?
Here is the one we basically ended up on:
STORY ENGINE SETTINGS: “A Man For All Seasons”
RESOLVE: Steadfast
IC RESOLVE: Change
GROWTH: Stop
APPROACH: Be-er
PROBLEM-SOLVING STYLE: Logical
DRIVER: Decision
LIMIT: Optionlock
OUTCOME: Failure
JUDGMENT: GoodOVERALL STORY (Bending to King Henry VIII’s remaking of church & marriage)
THROUGHLINE: Manipulation
CONCERN: Conceiving an Idea
ISSUE: Permission vs. Deficiency
PROBLEM: Certainty
SOLUTION: Potentiality
SYMPTOM: Acceptance
RESPONSE: Nonacceptance
CATALYST: Deficiency
INHIBITOR: Reappraisal
BENCHMARK: Playing a RoleMAIN CHARACTER THROUGHLINE
(Sir Thomas More)
THROUGHLINE: Fixed Attitude
CONCERN: Contemplation
ISSUE: Reappraisal vs. Appraisal
PROBLEM: Deduction
SOLUTION: Induction
SYMPTOM: Acceptance
RESPONSE: Nonacceptance
UNIQUE ABILITY: Doubt
CRITICAL FLAW: Expediency
BENCHMARK: Impulsive ResponsesIMPACT CHARACTER THROUGHLINE
(The Duke of Norfolk)
THROUGHLINE: Situation
CONCERN: The Present
ISSUE: Repulsion vs. Attraction
PROBLEM: Certainty
SOLUTION: Potentiality
SYMPTOM: Deduction
RESPONSE: Induction
UNIQUE ABILITY: Attempt
CRITICAL FLAW: Analysis
BENCHMARK: How Things are ChangingRELATIONSHIP STORY (“Old friends divided by oath-taking”)
THROUGHLINE: Activity
CONCERN: Gathering Information
ISSUE: Prerequisites vs. Preconditions
PROBLEM: Certainty
SOLUTION: Potentiality
SYMPTOM: Probability
RESPONSE: Possibility
CATALYST: Preconditions
INHIBITOR: Repulsion
BENCHMARK: DoingADDITIONAL STORY POINTS
GOAL: Conceiving an Idea
CONSEQUENCE: Gathering Information
COST: The Present
DIVIDEND: Contemplation
REQUIREMENT: Playing a Role
PREREQUISITE: Doing
PRECONDITION: How Things are Changing
FOREWARNINGS: Impulsive Responses
I think we were still waiting for some final agreement from @LunarDynasty, @Prish and @Rod but that seems to be the best candidate. Is it worth us listing the illustrations for the story points that we came up with during this discussion?
I don’t think the overall story had anything to do with making the church. I think that was just a fallout of trying to bend people’s will to allow the marriage.
@Prish, in that summary “Bending to King Henry VIII’s remaking of church & marriage” I was trying to incorporate the awesome illustrations that @LunarDynasty had mentioned for the Overall Story Concern of Conceiving within the Domain of Manipulation:
Henry works to persuade others to conceive of a church without the papacy, of an England where he can do what’s best for the country (and/or himself)
also
The problem is whether Henry can manipulate everyone (the Pope, the nobility, the whole of England) to accept his plan for the Tudor dynasty, marrying / divorcing whomever he wants at his behest.
I think it’s about more than just the marriage, though “Bending to the marriage” was a nice summary to get us started.
Changing the King’s power with church and marriage? I’ll mull this over with the thesaurus.
Yeah I know what you were getting at with bending to King Henry’s Will and I think it works great as a story encoding for the final storyform. I’m pretty sure everyone will agree on this one so I’ll check and see if we can add it in.
Thanks everyone!
Hey Jim, is there any point to trying to illustrate some of the story points? I could probably do a dozen or so encodings pretty quickly just by combing through the thread and copying what people already wrote when they were supporting their ideas. It would be cool to see some of those encodings on the site – BUT it would take way longer to try and encode all the points, so I’m not volunteering for that LOL.
I would say no. Chris already said its ok for me to post it, so I will sometime this week. Thanks!
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Sounds great! Thanks to everyone who contributed to the analysis … and especially to @LunarDynasty Brant for all of the guidance and teaching provided along the way. I really learned a lot from this thread.
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Yeah, this was fun and informative. Thanks everyone for participating!
Thanks for getting me on board with this, still a fantastic film 50 years later! I’m with you, kudos to LunarDynasty. This place is so much fun.
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Hey Jim, did you manage to post this analysis? I can’t find it on the site, but maybe my search-fu is poor.