Hunger Games (Book 1)

analysis
#41

I don’t really see the conflict coming from The Future though. It’s not like they have this terrible future hanging over their heads that they’re all worried about, the way someone dreading say, having to join the army in a year would. Maybe it’s more of a Benchmark? (And of course it’ll be one signpost too – I’d guess the last one when Peeta is healed and they say “we could make it home together”.)

EDIT: I also don’t know how well the other bottom-left Concerns would fit – Subconscious for the RS? I think it would be a lot more hot & heavy in that case, whereas Memory fits perfectly with Katniss’s flashback to the bread and Peeta recollecting when he first started to like her. Same with Becoming and Obtaining, they don’t feel like the root sources of conflict.

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#42

That’s interesting. Now I’ll have to watch the movie again! I think this actually might be a difference between the book and the movie. The article I linked to earlier points out that there’s a scene in the book where District 11 revolts in response to Rue’s death, which isn’t in the book (well, we don’t know about it anyway, because everything is from Katniss POV). So instead of a note of hope, we have an ominous feeling that the Capitol is infuriated, that Katniss and Peeta will have to keep up this act forever. And according to the article, Peeta is more dispirited in the book.

I agree that’s a better formulation.

Well, maybe it’s good that you took a few days to watch the movie :slight_smile: because with more distance I can see the case for this. I think it’s a little clearer in the book that Peeta is actually in love with her. But that doesn’t mean he’s not influencing her in terms of psychology. Meanwhile, Katniss is super-suspicious of him all along. In fact, the article points to this as something that happens in the book but not the movie:

When the gamemakers announce that only one tribute can live (again) Katniss thinks Peeta is trying to kill her so she draws an arrow across her bow.

She feels incredibly guilty after this – and I can now see how this is the moment of her change. She goes from self-protection to recognizing Peeta’s sincerity and willingness to die for her, which leads her to risk both of them dying.

Okay @jassnip I’m coming around her her being Changed :slight_smile:

All of your other points make sense @mlucas.

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#43

@jassnip I wonder if what you’re seeing here isn’t at the Issue level. “We can take away your future” sounds a lot like saying we have complete control of your Fate/Destiny. (May the odds be ever in your favor – except they obviously aren’t).

Note to self: write a post asking why all of the Issues under Past address the future…

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#44

Yes! Actually it is pretty clear in the movie too, but I had that exact thought watching it – even though he IS actually in love with her, it still influences her in terms of psychology. (I love the influence character throughline! so cool.)

Yeah this exists in the movie only during the first part when he’s with the Careers. It’s a bit strange in the movie that they never talk about that (though it’s clear to Katniss that Peeta was helping her because he tells her to run when she’s hallucinating).

But I guess they might have needed to be stingy with scenes and dialogue – it was a 2h22m movie.

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#45

After I wrote this I realized, Signpost 2 – the act where they’re in the Capitol training and doing interviews, with the imminent death-match of the Games hanging over their heads – might be an even better Signpost of The Future.

Speaking of which:

  • First Driver – Reaping, Prim gets chosen
  • Second Driver – Either the arrival at the Capitol, or maybe the chariot display with fire-clothing (interesting to know where these fall in the book in terms of page count)
  • Third Driver (Midpoint) – The Games begin
  • Fourth Driver – ?? Probably the first “rule change” allowing two same-district victors. Or actually, that’s probably the decision driven by whatever Katniss did right before that – Haymitch was arguing with the Head Gamemaker not to kill her and to go for “young love” instead. So I think the actual Fourth Driver action is Rue’s killing and Katniss’s flower tribute, which is what prompted the “young love / two victor” decision.
  • Concluding Driver – berries
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#46

So it sounds like you’re voting for Action drivers? This would make sense but I’m totally sure.

So for example, is this: Prim gets picked randomly (Action) -> Katniss decision to volunteer? Or is the reaping all one Decision driver process?

So while the flower tribute is in the book, none of the rest of this is (it’s all in Katniss’s POV). So I don’t remember there being a clear link between the flower tribute and the decision to change the rules (for example).

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#47

Sorry I thought you guys had sort of agreed on Action already, so I wasn’t questioning it too much. I think it was because of this post:

Maybe we should keep Decision in the back pocket though. I could see the First and Concluding Drivers as Decisions, maybe. But I think @jassnip is right about the apple, and I"m not sure there’s any kind of Decision to enter the games at the Midpoint (unless in the book Katniss is really hesitating and considering it?)

So yeah, it was Prim getting chosen randomly that I was thinking was the First Driver Action. This fits with the premise – the Games have been going on a while but what breaks that balanced inequity is the random choosing of this one poor girl who’s already lost her father, despite it being her first Reaping and she only has her name in once.

So now the tradition of the Games is revealed as a problem in the Universe, setting up the Goal to break that tradition.

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#48

So @Lakis should we go to OS Issue, or look at other throughline Concern illustrations a bit more?

I think Peeta’s planning and scheming, his deviousness with the Careers, is a strong illustration of how he influences Katniss through Conceptualizing. I think there’s also something around gaining favor, how they have to scheme in terms of showcasing their young love for the audience (getting others to visualize them as lovers) – that’s a huge influence on Katniss.

Also what you said here:

So that moment is really cool because you can see the second half of story the like “Peeta was scheming against me with the careers, but actually no he was doing it to protect me, and then we were scheming together to win, but oh no now he’s against me again … oops wait, he’s NOT scheming against me and never will”. So it’s a great NOT Conceptualizing instance.

#49

I’m really liking Interdiction for OS Issue (even though there’s no Green Line, haha inside joke).

  • Katniss volunteering to take Prim’s place is a big interdiction (intervening on her behalf) and basically the whole the story
  • The sponsors intervene on behalf of the tributes with their little gifts of medicine etc. In the movie, Haymitch intervenes to help Katniss
  • The gamemakers keep intervening (stopping Katniss with a wall of fire, adding the dog beasts, etc.). The rule changes are a huge intervention.
  • The whole Hunger Games intervenes on the regular life of the Districts as a way of interdicting another uprising

I think you mentioned some of those before @Lakis when arguing for The Past. :slight_smile:

#50

I’m good with either. I feel pretty solid on these Concerns, but we can find some more illustrations.

Regarding IC – I think there probably is a bit of handoff here with some other characters, particularly Cinna (making the costume, suggesting they hold hands, etc.) and maybe others.

There’s also this moment which seems strong IC Psychology …

… though I’m not sure about the Concern, because he basically names all of them – “I don’t want them to change me [Becoming], I wish I could think of a way [Conceptualizing] to show them [Conceiving] they don’t own me. If I’m going to die I still want to be me [Being].”

Wow, watching this really highlights the IC influence to change too (I guess I was wrong). Katniss says, “I can’t afford to think like that, I have my sister” contrasted with the end where she does think like that and manipulates them with the berries.

The RS between them is completely centered around Memory – she remembers him as the boy who risked a beating to give her bread; he has been in love with her for as long as he can remember.

You mentioned MC of Understanding. I would love to articulate that more clearly, but it feels pretty strong to me.

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#51

Oh yeah, really good point about that scene. I noticed it was super strong while watching it but didn’t realize how perfectly it contrasts Katniss before and after, showing her change.

Although you’re totally right about it going through all the Psychology Types (that’s really cool!!!), I also think it does show the IC Concern of Conceptualizing in how it highlights the quad of Variations beneath. Sense of Self and State of Being are really strong in how Peeta doesn’t want them to change him, and grapples with what he means by that. Their shared Situation is apparent from the beginning of the scene, the shared silence as the crowd chants outside; and Peeta’s words prompt Katniss to consider her Circumstances re: Prim.

Yeah it definitely feels strong, but I can hear Jim’s voice in the back of my head asking to explain how it’s a problem for her. Brainstorming here:

  • In the beginning she’s hunting for the family, performing illegal activities to do so (Physics). It’s like she’s the only one in her family who Understands what it takes to keep them afloat, keep them fed. She has that burden of understanding on herself, because her mom doesn’t really seem to understand and Prim’s too little to get it.
  • She understands what it will cost her family esp. Prim if she dies. She suffers from that understanding, but it also drives her.
  • She struggles to understand the Capitol, its customs, how to win favour, etc.
  • Although it’s mostly IC throughline, there might be some MC throughline in her misunderstanding Peeta’s intentions
  • There’s no doubt the quad of Instinct/Conditioning/Sense/Interpretation is super strong for her. I especially like Instinct and Conditioning (her motherly instincts towards Prim, her training with the bow).

Okay, I think all that looks pretty good!

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#52

Oh, great examples! It’s kind of cool how it’s all packed in there.

Okay those are all great Understanding examples. A few other popped into my head:

  • Could this also be that she literally is the only one who Understands how to hunt? Especially when you think of Instinct/Conditioning/Sense/Interpretation in that context?

  • With the exception of Gale, no one understands her. Her father understood her, but he’s gone.

Okay, I’m good with Understanding. Should we move on to Issues? We can back up if anything seems really off or if someone raises objections to these points.

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#53

Definitely! You already saw my vote for Interdiction for the OS, what did you think of that?

For MC I was thinking Instinct is super strong. Her motherly instincts towards Prim. Her instinct to run and find nature. She has no instincts for getting people to like her. In the games, her instinct to put as much distance between her and the other Tributes makes her a target for the game makers and their wall of fire. Even the suspicion towards Peeta that you mentioned might be on the Instinctual level. Certainly her instincts tell her not to trust the people in the Capitol, even the people who are her friends or who can help her.

(You can probably guess where I’m going in terms of Problem but trying to hold off on that for now…)

#54

Lol this storyform is starting to look familiar :slight_smile:

I think those examples for Interdiction are good. We should probably look at that as a possibility along with the Elements underneath.

My initial idea though was to put the OS Issue in Fate (vs. Destiny). Here’s my (too long–sorry) case:

The Capitol’s whole point in the Hunger Games is demonstrate, again and again, that you can’t escape your Fate in Panem.

Obviously we see this in the “may the odds be ever your favor” line, but also in the way that they “play God” with arena and in so many other ways. The arena itself is a mini-world, and the gamemakers are like chess masters, playing with pawns. The whole concept of a Muttation is another example of playing God (and the Mockingjay a symbol the Capitol really isn’t God).

The point here isn’t just that the Capitol can Intervene at any moment in your life (though it can) – more importantly, the Capitol wants to reinforce the idea that this is just the way things are. If your number comes up, you can’t avoid it. There can be only one winner of the Hunger Games – not because we say so, but because that’s the way things are. (At least in the book, the “rules” of the Hunger Games are presented as immutable, handed down from prior generations.)

The counterpoint to this is Destiny. Yes, Katniss’s volunteering to replace Prim looks like Interdiction – but it’s really an attempt to change the course Destiny. Same with Peeta’s "I wish I could think of a way to show them they don’t own me. If I’m going to die I still want to be me.” He may be subject to the Fate the gamemakers determine for him, but he wants (somehow) to still control his own Destiny.

This is the power of the whole “star-crossed lovers” trick. On the one hand it fits right into the Captitol’s narrative – what bad luck! (Fate). On the other, if the lovers are willing to both die (leaving no winner), then the preordained “rule” of one and only one winner is shown to be hollow, and the God-like power of the Capitol is shattered.

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#55

I can see your arguments for sure. We might have to pencil both Fate and Interdiction in and check at the Element level.

Note Interdiction gives Suspicion for RS Issue, which is pretty awesome! But Fate gives Truth, which is also darn good (their true feelings about each other).

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#56

Well, let’s start with MC Issue – I agree that Instinct is pretty strong for the reasons you mentioned.

With that in place and OS issue of Interdiction (hmm, very very familiar…), we have RS Issue of Suspicion which is pretty good as you say.

So:
OS Problem of Desire: “the motivation to change one’s situation or circumstances” – certainly that seems problematic in a lot ways. Everyone desires to win the games, wants to come home, etc. The gamemakers desire to keep control.

OS Focus/Direction of Inequity/Equity. On the one hand, problems of Inequity and Equity would seem pretty obvious for a dystopian story, but I’m having trouble putting them into words …

OS Solution of Ability: Because of her Conditioning (Unique Ability) as a hunter/gatherer, Katniss has the Ability to identify the poison berries, and therefore they can trick the gamemakers into changing the rules.

If the OS Issue is Fate:

OS Problem: Thought

  • Reflecting On Something (The Capitol wants people to reflect on the past)
  • Being too Cunning for a Particular Group (both Peeta and Katniss toward the Capitol)
  • Acting without Consideration for Something (Katniss shooting the arrow in the game room)
  • Being Mindful of Someone/Being Attentive to Something (Katniss is mindful of Rue)

OS Focus/Direction: Chaos/Order: The Hunger Games were created in order to remind people of the Chaos of the Dark Days and the importance of maintaining Order. Katniss and Peeta’s actions threaten to create Chaos, forcing the gammakers to change the rules (Order).

OS Solution: Knowledge – Because of her Conditioning (Unique Ability) as a hunter/gatherer, Katniss Knows what the poison berries are; she also Knows that the gamemakers can’t afford to let them both die.

FWIW if we change the MC Issue to Interpretation, it gives us the same respective OS quads, just different Problem/Solution/Focus/Direction

I could also see an OS Issue of Destiny, which gives us Self Aware/Aware Speculation/Projection but that doesn’t feel as strong.

Hmm. What do you think @mlucas?

(I probably am going to clock out tonight, but will return tomorrow)

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#57

At the risk of derailing things, I always saw the first hunger games film (granted, I haven’t read the book) as having a OS activity. I’m very new to this, so I’m sure I’m wrong and everyone else seems to be in agreement with the situation domain – which is all the evidence I need. However, I thought I would post my thoughts just so I can get a clearer understand on things regarding domains.

I always saw a OS situation as something where the characters were actively trying to get rid of inequity in their ‘universe’. And even though clearly there is inequity, its kinda of a situation that is accepted. It might be unfair, and you might not like it, but what can we do about?

Apart from Katniss’ last action with the berries, I don’t think this hunger games is any different from the many that came before it. If Katniss had killed Peeta instead, she would be the winner, and nothing would have changed. It would be back to the daily situation and people preparing for the next years hunger games.

Yes, her actions do cause a shift in the control the capitol has on the people, but that is never her intention. Her intention was to find away to save them both – this was the only way. The fact the act caused a ripple and began a revolution was never at the back of her mind. In the second film she is actually surprised by the effect this one action had on the world.

I think in regards to the Hunger Games Series, if the 4 films (three books) were condensed into one film, then I would agree the OS would be situation. The berries scene would be the first story driver. Before then we had an unfair situation, where nothing was done about it as everyone felt powerless. Then the berrie scene makes the people think “you know what, we don’t have to put up with his anymore, we can fight”

But I think as a stand alone film, I’m not sure how situation works. But I’m excited to be proved wrong :slight_smile:

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#58

Here’s a good way to separate Physics and Universe. (They are both external so we don’t have to worry about internal in our test.) You think of the entire Overall Story and consider whether there is something problematic going on, that needs to stop or something problematic stuck, that needs to be unstuck. Process vs. state.

With Hunger Games 1, it’s a lot easier to defend the latter. The fighting in the Games themselves is only part of the story (starts in Act 3) – it’s contained in a larger problem. You could try to say there’s a continued subjugation of the Districts “going on” but it’s really hard to lay your finger on that as an external process, something going on. It’s much easier to see that the Universe of Panem has something wrong with it – there is a problem with its state. Something is broken, sort of stuck, and needs to be changed.

At least that’s how @Lakis, @jassnip and I have been seeing it!

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#59

These are all fantastic … but I wonder if they might be good illustrations of the MC Direction? The last two especially.

I was thinking Problem of Ability for both OS and MC. This is really clear for Katniss as MC Problem – it’s why she volunteers, because she is WAY more able to compete in the Games than Prim, in fact she’s probably more able than anyone in the District.

For OS it would come out as, the Capitol has the ability to take your children and you can’t do anything about it (Peacekeepers). All the food, technology, posh living quarters, etc. of the Capitol show the huge imbalance of Ability between the Capitol and the Districts. The Careers – they’ve been honing their abilities their whole lives.

And then the Solution of Desire starts to come into it with the whole young love / star-crossed lovers thing, the riling up of District 11 over Rue, Katniss starting to truly care for Peeta and admit her feelings for him. Showing their feelings to the audience. Earning favor (favoring is a gist for Desire!).

And the thing with the berries is Katniss opening herself up to desire – the desire to make it out alive with Peeta, that she cares about someone so much that she’s willing to risk dying for him, even if it means not making it home to (be able to) take care of Prim.

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#60

Welcome to the conversation @Myster82! FWIW these group analyses are one of the best ways to get a better understanding of Dramatica in my opinion. The key is to be willing to state your opinion and back it up, while also always being open to changing your mind (I’ve never participated in one of these conversations without having to revise my initial opinion). So it sounds like you’ve got the right approach.

In addition to what @mlucas said, here’s an article @jhull wrote a while ago that I’ve found helpful on the distinction between Physics (Activities) and Universe (Situation):

I’m sure there are other articles – maybe someone can point to them.

Another way is to look at a bunch of existing analyses of stories and you’re familiar with and compare the ones that are Universe vs. Physics to see if you can a sense of how they feel different (that goes for all the story points).

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