# IC Missing until Act 2 = Broken story form? **URL:** \ **Category:** Support\ **Created:** [October 22, 2017, 8:26am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291 "2017-10-22T08:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DanThut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dec6dc/32.png) [@DanThut](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/DanThut)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 8:26am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/1 "2017-10-22T08:26:21Z")
I think/hope the answer to my question is ‘yes’, but I can’t find any threads on it here, nor any examples of it elsewhere in the Dramaticasphere to back me up or shoot me down. Here goes : _Can I delay introducing my IC so that she only arrives at the start of Act 2, without breaking my story?_ Some more info. The IC is unknown to the other characters at the start. The MC is a Mind Domain, Be-er, with Start and Change dynamics. Therefore, my original concept was that the IC player would be referred to as ‘missing’, or that someone in her role is ‘needed’, so we feel the loss of her influence in Act 1 as the MC is frozen in an internal state and unable to act or begin to change. I ‘think’ I can handle the IC and the RS throughlines in that first act by referring to their absence/loss instead of them actually being there (it works well with my themes and content, in fact), BUT the question is as above. _Does this form break my story form, regardless of how well I write the prose?_ I know I could handle this by having a hand-off of IC in the Act1/2 break, but instinctively I want to hold off from that to explore if I can do it the first way. Thanks, Dan ---
**Author:** ![Greg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/71c47a/32.png) [@Greg](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Greg)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/2 "2017-10-22T16:50:22Z")
There are several answers to this question. Some short answers in no particular order: 1. As Melanie Anne Phillips says in [multiple places](https://www.google.com/search?q=melanie+ann+philips+no+one+goes+to+the+movies+for+perfect+structure&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8): > …no one reads a book or goes to a movie to experience a perfect structure but rather to have their passions ignited. So if it comes to a choice between an exciting thing and a structural thing, go with the excitement whenever you can, but be sure never to break structure completely or your readers or audience will not be able to cross that gap and will cease to follow you on your journey. If it works better, go for it. 2. Depends on if you’re talking about a Dramatica Act 2, or a Blake Snyder Act 2. It’s fine to explore all of your OS and MC Sign Post and Journey 1 before moving onto your IC Sign Post 1. In this way, you might explore all of what Snyder or others might call Act 1, but not be done with your Dramatica Act 1. I think @MWollaeger has mentioned elsewhere on this board (though I couldn’t currently find it, i’ll keep looking so I can link to it later maybe) that Save the Cat and other paradigms are about structuring a screenplay whereas Dramatica is about structuring a problem that needs to be solved. Two different things. 3. Jim wrote about a movie (I think it was Moonlight, again I might try to find the link at another time) where a throughline Sign Post was left out but worked to allow the audience to fill in that missing piece of information on their own, essentially allowing them to be able to interact with the story. So a Sign Post might be left out with purpose. 4. There are ways that your MC can be influenced by the IC without the IC being present. So yes, you can avoid introducing the IC until the very end if the story calls for it. But you would still need to show that characters influence on the MC throughout. I gather this is what you were looking for when you spoke about referring to the IC’s absence. ---
**Author:** ![Prish](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/prish/32/33_2.png) [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/3 "2017-10-22T21:51:48Z")
> [@Gregolas](#): > > your MC can be influenced by the IC without the IC being present. So yes, you can avoid introducing the IC until the very end if the story calls for it. When I watched The Accountant, this insight is exactly how I took that film’s last scene. I felt it was a reveal of the true IC and his manipulations on the MC during the whole present-day part of the story. Be sure to rewatch it in closed caption, to make sure you catch it all, being only a few sentences of dialog. I thought it was a fantastic job. Strictly imho, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Gernot](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/gernot/32/1774_2.png) [@Gernot](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Gernot)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 5:52am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/4 "2017-10-23T05:52:18Z")
Another option could that some of your other characters illustrate the IC signpost during the 1 act (while your IC is not on stage yet) by using it as focal point. @decastell mentioned this in a recent discussion here on this board. > [@Distinguishing between IC and RS throughlines?](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/distinguishing-between-ic-and-rs-throughlines/1043/2): > > A third aspect to the IC that Jim and I once discussed was whether the IC had to themselves be the avatar of the opposing approach or simply its focal point. It’s probably easiest to illustrate this by example. When we think of a story in which the MC’s approach of openness (let’s say, being open to new immigrants) and thus the opposing viewpoint is preconception (e.g. the conviction that immigrants are dangerous), you would think that the IC must be someone espousing that point of view – arguing with the MC about the danger of open borders or whatever. But that would screw up a story in which the RS – the heart of the story – is between the MC and a new immigrant and the friendship between them. However the two aren’t incompatible: other people’s views and actions with regards to the IC in this case can be what creates the problems for the MC and challenges their approach. So in this case the IC is the focal point of this opposing approach, rather than being the person espousing it. ---
**Author:** ![mlucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mlucas/32/275_2.png) [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/5 "2017-10-23T16:38:33Z")
> [@DanThut](#): > > I ‘think’ I can handle the IC and the RS throughlines in that first act by referring to their absence/loss instead of them actually being there (it works well with my themes and content, in fact), BUT the question is as above. Does this form break my story form, regardless of how well I write the prose? I think this could work well, but what you might want to do is see if the references to the IC’s absence can also somehow represent the IC’s perspective and thus influence the MC toward Change. This might even happen naturally, without you even trying. In the story I’m working on, I found some of my other characters, who are really just OS/MC throughline characters, seemed to be pushing the MC toward Change. This surprised me until I realized it only happened when they were talking _about_ the IC, reminding me that the IC’s perspective and influence doesn’t require the IC to be present in a scene. * * * A couple totally different ideas: 1. How sure are you about what marks the “start” of Act 2? Maybe it’s slightly later than you think – especially if the first OS Act turn is a slide instead of a bump – and the IC might arrive on time for IC Signpost 1. 2. Is it possible the IC might have been doing something off-screen in Act 1 that nevertheless has some indirect influence on the MC, that we find out about later on? That would still work fine as IC Signpost 1. Anyway, just throwing those out there, but I still think your “feeling IC’s absence” ideas can work great. ---
**Author:** ![DanThut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dec6dc/32.png) [@DanThut](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/DanThut)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/6 "2017-10-23T17:14:27Z")
Everyone, thanks so much for the considered responses. What I have taken from this is; ‘yes’ it’s possible to make this work, but I have a number of choices to make about how I want to execute it, and those will impact the feel of the throughline. I anticipate that I’ll come back to this thread once I have worked out my next steps, but that will be a while from now, I think. Thanks again. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/7 "2017-10-23T17:22:12Z")
The IC in the Accountant is not the voice you hear at the end. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/8 "2017-10-23T17:25:32Z")
In _The Edge of Tomorrow_ you could argue that the IC doesn’t show up until Act 2. I think she’s introduced via a billboard in Act 1, but that seems awfully slim if you want to say “See! She has a impact!” I think she’s just introduced so we recognize her later. You can also introduce your IC after the shift into Act 2 and decide to do the IC Act 1 at that point, in effect doing everything just out of order. Or – and I think there is an example of this in Armando’s book – you can reveal what the IC has been up to later, out of chronological order. The example in the book is a mystery/thriller. ---
**Author:** ![Prish](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/prish/32/33_2.png) [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/9 "2017-10-23T19:13:01Z")
Aha! Maybe, it’s the contagonist. I always get those confused in the stories. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/10 "2017-10-24T21:42:52Z")
I think it’s even less than that. It could be cut from the movie and not make an impact. It’s an _interesting_ idea, but doesn’t affect the plot at all really. ---
**Author:** ![Prish](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/prish/32/33_2.png) [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/11 "2017-10-24T22:09:05Z")
Interesting example of audience reception because that made the whole story and movie come alive for me. It WAS the whole film, imho. I thought it was one of the most exciting scenes I have ever seen in my life…up there with Citizen Kane’s Rosebud. With it, I saw a masterpiece, and without it, barely hohum whacking. I want to see it several times more. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/12 "2017-10-24T22:21:21Z")
You’re talking about the computer voice? The British woman? ---
**Author:** ![Prish](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/prish/32/33_2.png) [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/13 "2017-10-24T23:45:51Z")
Haha…no, the character at the end who reveals ‘past connection’ before… ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2017, 5:50am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/ic-missing-until-act-2-broken-story-form/1291/14 "2017-10-25T05:50:13Z")
Ah. Still not the IC.