I was thinking that fixing someone is a Goal of Becoming, but “Sixth Sense” is Understanding and “Inside Out” is Conceptualization. Maybe my story goal is Conceptualizing too (“Where does MC (or all of us) fit in all this?”), but then I’d need to pick a different Problem since Avoid wouldn’t be available IIRC.
I wasn’t really using fix as a Goal. Just short fornsayimg that everyone was concerned with one person. So fixing, understanding, obtaining, whatever. Everyone can be looking toward one person for that.
And I would think fixing someone could fit in a few places depending on how one is being fixed.
Why Do you want to have a narrative argument spelled out? It seems like you want it to help you find your storyform, but you also seem to want to tailor it to storyform choices you’ve already made.
Why not start with these points and build your narrative from there? Something like:
Pursuit of something ends with something Good.
Now you can build from there.
Try to work this in and you’ll have something like:
Stop avoiding fears to end with something Good.
Now try to figure out what something Good is. Is it talking to his parents? Winning a life time supply of chocolate? Realizing there’s one more episode of a great show left before season finale? Being at peace? Could be anything, really.
I think this might be expected by the audience from a story such as yours, at least on some level. But structurally I don’t think it’s required at all. Let me see if I can come up with something (this is off the top of my head, so it may not work).
MC wants fame, so he hops in an RV and heads to LA. This causes his parents to disown him and now he’s scared to return to them, to speak first. Why? Because he never went for it. He got to LA and chickened out, assumes he’d never make it and always made excuses whenever he had a casting call come up. The IC is pushing him to face his fears, which he at first takes as ‘call your parents’. And he almost does call them. But just as he picks up the phone, he gets a text. Someone has seen his headshot and some audition tape or other and thinks he’ll be perfect as ‘dead body #2’ on a popular crime show. This is it, he thinks as he hangs up before dialing his parents and heads out to finally face his fear and go to his first real audition. He gets the part, his parents see it, and call to congratulate him on his success.
I’m having a lot of trouble separating OS from MC when trying to describe each with a sentence. If OS is something like: “Misfits try to help a hermit with an anxiety disorder rejoin society,” does fighting an anxiety disorder belong in OS or MC (the ex-hermit in question)? Anxiety disorder feels very subjective to me (thus MC), but is also an obstacle to OS stuff like accepting responsibility required to maintain a job and relationships.
If anxiety goes to OS, then what goes in MC? Would lack of confidence or not taking risks go there or are those just side-effects of anxiety and memories of past failure? Should OS just be “Misfits help a hermit rejoin society,” and MC is struggling to overcome an anxiety disorder?
Assigning domains to the throughlines will give you the answer to your question because the domains focus the nature of the way in which the story (inequity) is shown in context. So long as you keep it abstract, there is no right or wrong way to frame it. Once you align the throughlines with the domains, the way to explore it becomes better defined.
I recommend playing around with assigning the OS and MC domains to see which combination best fits what you have in mind.
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Does everyone experience conflict from helping the hermit rejoin society and only the hermit experiences conflict from anxiety? Or does everyone experience conflict from fighting the hermits anxiety disorder?
Can you look at what kind of conflict you hope to write about and see where that conflict comes from? For instance, let’s say the misfit gang and the hermit get kicked out of the paintball match. Does that come from attempts to help the hermit rejoin society, or does it come from fighting the hermits anxiety?
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I’ve been tweaking the storyform for years but can’t accept anything w/ certainty and eventually get stuck. I thought maybe OS is Mind and characters have problems from avoiding fears (and/or MC avoiding fears) and MC is Psychology since MC needs to change, although I’m not sure how Becoming is a problem for him (aside from it’s hard for anyone to change). MC could be Mind since he doesn’t believe in himself to succeed.
[quote=“Greg, post:26, topic:2076”]
Does that come from attempts to help the hermit rejoin society, or does it come from fighting the hermits anxiety?
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Anxiety… or what he does/n’t do because of it.
So if everyone experiences conflict from the hermits anxiety, that should be your OS, right?
So what types of conflict does everyone experience? And what processes, in your view as the author, lead to that conflict? What process would end it?
Example: Everyone experiences the conflict of finding themselves in the dragons lair. So how did they get there? In your view as author, was it because they were running from the centaurs? Or is because they gave in to their fears of the centaurs? Or was it something else?
And in your view, would that be solved by fighting the centaurs instead of running? Or would just not being afraid of the centaurs work to solve that problem?
I don’t know anymore. In older versions, I figured the characters cause themselves trouble when they decide/act based on fear, the MC most of all. I wasn’t sure whether to bend story form to illustration (which came before the story form) or illustration to a story form. I don’t know what stuff to cut or keep since whatever I do feels off somehow. Although I think it’s mainly about facing fears, other themes have come up like envy and wanting to feel purpose and belonging, and then I don’t know what to do with that stuff, second-guess what my story is about, and become dissatisfied w/ my ideas for what conflicts the non-MC characters.
I suppose explorers would solve their problem of being chased by fighting or diplomacy (“Wait, why are you chasing us?”) to stop the chase. I can see fear being the thing that caused them to run in the first place, but IIRC, the motivation leading to the problem doesn’t matter in the storyform. If you need actions to illustrate fears and stopping the action caused by the fear is all that matters, then how can any Domain be internal?
EDIT: Is there a way to extract source of problem from one’s argument statement?
You don’t need actions, you need conflict. Take the same scenario described above and replace “finding themselves in the dragons lair” with “finding themselves in a deep depression”. Why are they depressed? Because they ran from the centaurs? Or because they were afraid of the centaurs? Still valid.
It seems like you want the OS to be about fears. Why not just start there? being afraid of the hermit causes John to abandon his friends. Being afraid of society causes a standoff between the hermit and misfits when the hermit threatens the misfits with a shotgun when they step on his property. Being afraid of germs causes the hermit to run off when Sally won’t shake his dirty hand. You can also throw in conflict like inner turmoil, or going into a rage, or whatever other internal conflict seems appropriate.
I have OS as Mind and MC as Psychology, but I’m not sure how Becoming is a problem for MC alone (aside from how trying to overcome one’s anxious nature hurts like hell and requires challenging one’s beliefs and looking at things from new perspectives, but it’s failing at attempts to change and frustration with glacial progress which hurt, not change itself. Does that count?). I could make up something about MC’s attempts to Become a responsible member of society open him up to new fears, or is that redundant OS stuff?
MC is very concerned with feeling useful to others and I’ve considered Impulsive Responses since it’s very hard to ignore the fight-or-flight instinct no matter how inaccurate it is, and that goes with the “face your fears” message (desensitization tames anxiety) but then that changes the whole storyform and I can’t use Avoid anymore. That kind of stuff might just be Requirements in the OS or something.
I thought one was supposed to get a “eureka!” kind of feeling when the storyform is arranged right, but I never have that, at least for long. I don’t know if that means the storyform is wrong if I’m not “feeling” it 100% or if I have to bend the pieces of story I’ve got to fit into the storyform.
Struggling to change one’s nature definitely counts as Becoming!
I don’t think it ever feels 100% right until you’ve written enough of the thing to understand how it all works. It took me like 50,000+ words of my current story to understand what my MC Problem really was!
Rather than thinking of it as bending the pieces of story, think of it as shifting your perspective on those pieces. I think everybody has to do this to some degree, because it’s always possible to see your OS, MC, etc. from different angles. It may even be good, the harder it is to do this, because if it’s hard it means your story is more nuanced with the throughlines possibly more interconnected.
For example, when I settled on a storyform for my current story with my MC in Mind, I thought it was weird that I envisioned a big part of his character as athletics – college cross-country/track runner. It seemed like there were conflicts stemming from Physics in his throughline and that they were personal to him. Sometimes I had a hard time seeing him as a Be-er. But I decided to go with him in Mind, without giving up the cross-country, and see what happened.
Lo and behold, it all worked out ten times better than I’d imagined. The most crucial running scenes turned out to be important RS scenes (and RS is in Physics), with perhaps some IC (who’s influencing him toward Do-ing). The running itself turned out not really part of the MC Throughline at all. I had pictured it so strongly as part of his character that I thought it had to be MC, but the running itself is never a source of conflict for him personally.
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This is a hard one to separate from OS with the info we currently have, but if everyone is dealing with Mind problems, then it’s technically the fear that’s causing them to experience conflict and not helping the hermit to rejoin society. That leaves “becoming a part of society” open as a source of conflict for the hermit alone. Why might becoming a part of society create conflict for the hermit outside of his anxiety?
I’ve had this feeling before. Several times. Usually on the same story. Keep in mind that if you don’t have a fully formed functioning grand argument in place, there’s not necessarily going to be a perfect storyform there to find. Finding a storyform in my experience is part analyzing the idea to find a storyform and part using possible storyform choices to add new story to complete the argument.
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He’s been out of the loop for 100 years and is a fairly harmless parasite (I think all 3 characters have a thing for wanting to be independent but their goals depend on help from others, causing some frustration. I figured that teamwork vs dependency vs independence would be an RS issue of Situation), but I always pictured MC as thinking too much and IC as the active type who drags MC around, which shows MC that things aren’t as bad as he fears, but might making excuses or trying to hide be a Do-er thing since MC would be trying to remove himself from intimidating situations?
If all the pieces don’t directly relate to an argument that “trying to avoid fear makes it worse,” l don’t know when I’m getting off track or not since I’m subjectively swimming around in similar insecurities (tho much less fantastical), so they’ve seeped into my story. I have a sense of things like there’s a goal of connecting with others and feeling like a part of something bigger-- a sense of worth and purpose. MC has some conflicts whether it’ll hurt more to fail vs not try and be left wondering what could’ve been. MC and IC tie some of their sense of worth to external sources (it’s subconscious for IC, who thinks he’s confident, but MC has it consciously-- if he can’t earn a living to help support loved ones, he feels like a burden and believes that it’d be selfish and wrong of him to “burden” those loved ones. At some point, MC will have to find value in failure in order to bounce back from it and gain confidence. Maybe then my message is fear leads to insecurity and courage leads to emotional security? Broadly, it’s about trying to find a place, success, and purpose despite an anxiety disorder and bad self-esteem.
Can all those pieces go together in a cohesive whole?
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I don’t want to step on Greg’s toes as he’s putting in the effort here, but just want to say that it definitely does feel like all those things can go together to make a cohesive story. Big YES!
Also, your MC totally sounds like a Be-er. I wouldn’t question that. (Nothing’s ever written in stone BUT you’ll only do yourself harm if you don’t start writing the most certain things in pen and bury the liquid paper in the backyard, beside the woodpile where all the spiders lurk.)
Wanted to comment on this from an earlier post:
I was thinking about it and for me the eureka moments come after I start writing with a storyform I’m not 100% sure about. Then, the story points that I didn’t think fit very well, suddenly come up in the story in ways that I never expected (and could never have illustrated that way consciously). The IC Issue of Delay did NOT seem right, but then suddenly she’s yelling at the MC for taking too long with everything he’s doing, and her mom is wait-listed for a cancer trial, and she’s late trying to meet her ex-boyfriend resulting in his capture, and a hundred other things that just come into the story over and over on their own.
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First of all…
Don’t worry about that at all. I love lots of different voices chiming in on the conversation. And it’s SharkCats thread anyway. Not mine.
I agree with Mike here. Absolutely they can. You’ve already said you have OS in Mind and MC in Psychology. If Psychology asks “What is it about how the MC thinks that causes the character problems?” then I think “overthinking things” is a great answer to that. Also, when I read the first sentence - “He’s been out of the loop for 100 years” - I assumed you were going to say that he has 100 year old sensibilities that don’t match up with those of the society he finds himself surrounded by, which I also think would work great. All you need now is to add the conflict that proves how “overthinking” is problematic. This could be something specific like “overthinking Jane’s invitation leads to embarrassment when the MC mistakenly reads too much into it and thinks she’s coming on to him” or it could be something vague like “overthinking things causes the MC to be dismissed by others” and you can get more specific later. You just need to see how the process of Psychology leads to whatever conflict you come up with.
Then it sounds like the IC is definitely able to influence the MC through the Physics of dragging the MC around
And then maybe the RS is about how they’re from two different worlds or something.
You can work the topic of “fear” into all four throughlines, but since your OS is already going to be about fears, I think that’s enough to suffice. Your MC, IC, and RS throughlines, even if not topically about fear, are still looking at the same problem as the OS, just from a different perspective. So they are still…i guess metaphorically (may be a better word to use here) about fear in that they will all play toward the same argument that the OS is playing toward, if that makes sense.
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I’m never quite sure if I’ve got the OS correctly assigned since I keep wondering if my story is trying to tell me something more than something “trite” and “cliché” like “Stop avoiding your fears and you can have a better life (or whatever. I can’t choose).” It doesn’t help that I constantly question whether Avoid is the right thing since there’s a lot of theme stuff I’ve got going on I don’t know where to cram like worrying about one’s value or worth, characters envying each other, and wanting to belong and be valued, but I can’t change much of the story form without losing Avoid. For all I know, Avoid is just a
Response. Also, if MC is shirking responsibilities (not that I want to make the whole thing about that… I’ve so many fragments that I don’t want to make the whole book about, leaving OS shrouded in mystery) due to fear and that messes things up for others, that’d be OS of Activities.
Even if everyone was making things worse by avoiding things, Avoiding by not doing sounds like an Activity and I’ve got an ending that sounds like Acceptance (or an intention to stop Avoiding living his life by rejecting a fantastical transformation into someone he’s envied the whole story, since MC has come to see value in their differences), so my argument statement, story, and storyform don’t seem to want to align and I can’t stand it.
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What are all the things you love about this story? What keeps you coming back to it?
I’ve been thinking about this on and off for a few days since there are different answers and my motivation has changed since I started this thing years ago. Is there a way to use that stuff to storyform?
Some ideas I’d liked were things I struggle to find justification for (ex. if MC is excessively anxious, his fears should be proven false, so having his brain escape and turn into a giant monster that, at the climax, starts rampaging thru a city, absorbing all living things to protect them from life’s hardships at the cost of autonomy… well, that sounds like a real threat and I don’t know if that undermines the stuff about most of MC’s fears being unjustified.).
I can say that I like mixing fantastic and mundane, though I can’t figure out the balance. I feel a pull towards zany and adventure-type ideas (in general. I draw cartoons and like to watch reviewers mock shoddy movies and cartoons which often involve crazy stuff happening like… someone getting eaten by a shark, then bursting out it’s belly with a chainsaw!!), but can’t seem to write this story in that kind of way because I need the direction and confidence that logic (whether internal or general) imposes, and I also care more about relationships between characters than action. I wanted to avoid too much fantastical world building, though I’ve toyed with ideas like blue-collar necromancers just doing their jobs (that kind of thing has interesting possibilities and offers freedom as opposed to writing something realistic about, say, reviving a has been movie star’s career, but I can’t figure out how to fit it in, like most of my OS ideas).
I’m interested in change over time or at least differences, like reading about the past’s ideas of what the future would be like, what they took for granted that seems strange now (and how Now might look to the future) or finding out what was funny or taboo 100 years ago and how it compares, but that interest feels more about illustrating than conflict. I personally have a preoccupation with time, likely owing a lot to fear of death and a sense of insecurity that drives me to want to accomplish something big and important so I can feel the fulfilment of having lived a meaningful, impactful life (off-brand diet immortality substitute: Memory). It all sounds like a whole load of Subconscious stuff and I’m sure there’s conflict to be found in there, but I don’t have a definitive statement about it. I suppose the “correct” message is that fame and/or leaving an important work-based legacy behind aren’t the most important things in life, but that feel disingenuous for me to say, so I can’t say much about it. I did try a time travel OS, but there were too many problems with stakes and paradoxes.
It’s the characters I like and the way the fantastical stuff represents my insecurities, hopes, and fears. I like their character designs I drew. I like to approach depressing things w/ humor (but logic or lack of direction can strangle such ideas) and imperfect, but happy endings in which characters find a better way (to think?). I see themes like fear, envy, insecurity, and trying to cope since that stuff bothers me. I like abstract stuff I can relate to like wanting to find meaning in life, but find it hard to think of how to illustrate that. I seem to be obsessed with mind stuff, making it difficult to think of conflicts of Situation/Activities.
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Hmmm.
Your process is VERY different from mine, so it’s difficult for me to figure out what’s really causing you trouble. (For example, I don’t worry at all about message when coming up with a story. I don’t even worry about storyform really, other than trying to get a sense of what the different throughlines are. My criteria is basically just “coolness” – “does this seem cool? do I like it?” This doesn’t change once I’m working from a storyform either; what the storyform does is to align my thinking. Oh, and sometimes it helps validate ideas – seeing how stuff matches up to the storyform gives me more confidence. But anyway, that’s just my process – lots of people do things differently.)
Still, even taking into account the differences in the way we approach story creation, I sense something is off when you say:
I think it’s totally okay to look at an idea your subconscious gave you and say, “nah, not quite right” or “try again” or even “WTF??!” However, to say “ooh, I really LIKE this idea … but it’s not right because his fears SHOULD be proven false” … I don’t know, there’s something off about that for me. If you really like something and want to write it you should go for it! Screw what the fearful, analytical part of you believes SHOULD happen – maybe it’s wrong.
That’s what I was trying to get at when I was asking what you love about the story. I think the things you love about it belong in it; they’re the core of your idea. They take precedence over any storyform or “message” because you’re never really sure what those are until you’ve written the thing.
Here’s what I think you should try. Make a point-form list of all the different things you love about this story. Stuff you’re sure about, stuff that you only toyed with, but only stuff you love (or at least, really like and would want to write about).
Because you seem to have a good handle on your MC and IC, the first three items of your list should be 1-2 sentence summaries of your MC, your IC, and their relationship. Don’t worry too much if some of their issues might be more in the OS; just do your best.
Then the rest of the list will be all the other cool ideas you have for the story. It’s okay if some of them are contradictory. Story ideas only here, nothing about Dramatica, structure, or message (at least not directly; it’s ok if you can see an aspect of theme or something behind the idea).
Finally, when you’re finished the list, ask yourself how those items could fit in the overall story that the MC and IC will get wrapped up in? Let yourself daydream, pick and choose, and do NOT worry about structure or message. If blue-collar necromancers sounds cool, explore that a bit. Make some notes on how that might work.
Hopefully this will get you thinking on what the whole story could be. Let it gestate for a while, solidify, and only then start looking at how it fits into a storyform. Possibly. You might be better off just starting to write with the vague ideas of the throughlines in your head, kind of egging you on and inspiring you because you’re wondering what they really are…
P.S. Love the idea of the zany tone. I’m picturing something a bit like A Series of Unfortunate Events which is brilliant. Go for it!
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