Judgment: Subjective or Objective?

[Greg]

@mlucas

I don’t think it was a problem of perspective, but of definition.

Maybe so. Like I said, I haven’t been following super close. As such, my comment about focus being the key can simply be taken as an aside to the conversation, just an opportunity to emphasize the point that Dramatica is all about author perspectives.

[MaddyV]

Thought I was all set with Success/Bad until Greg came in

I love @mlucas take on it.

@mlucas

What Hunter said about the Dividends is a really good point. We’re used to seeing how high Cost can temper Success/Good, so it makes sense the high Dividends can temper a Bad Judgment.

@Hunter

Even the way you’ve explained your source material suggests high Dividends, due to the fact that the Subconscious decomposes into Closure/Hope/Dream/Denial, which all sound like elements of why it’s good in your eyes. In fact, I’d even say that what you’re trying to say is that it can be Bad, and will be angst-y, but what you get out of it is worth it.

It is Good in my eyes! It is typically something most people would see as Bad, losing faith, what a downer, right! But when the “thing” you have faith in is causing you and others problems, maybe that belief is really not worth keeping. (But it’s not so simple, losing this faith does not resolve the angst, it may even intensify it. What do you stand on now, after losing this?)

@mlucas

I honestly think, based on this thread, that we should reconsider the idea that Judgment is always going to match “does the Author feel like the efforts to solve the problem were a Good thing or Bad thing?” Because here you have a story where the Author feels the efforts were a good thing, but the Judgment is Bad.

Basically, @jhull’s concept of severity is shown to be the most accurate here. You’re not saying they made the wrong choice, but that the right choice was a severe one .

One hundred percent, yes. @jhull It’s a lot of reading, but I’d be really thankful if you could take a look at this. And thank you @mlucas for helping me out!

And then…@Greg comes in with

@Greg

it DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE CHARACTER THINKS OR FEELS

@Greg

I haven’t been following this thread super close, but it seems like you were saying something about the character feeling it was Good, but you as the author feeling it was Bad (or maybe the other way around).

The other way around, yes. I see your point with the 1984 storyform, and the ending with the character feeling one way while it is clear to the audience that this is not a good thing. How would I go about doing so the other way around?
I don’t want to compromise my message to fit into a box, and I am certain Dramatica is flexible enough for my story here.

@mlucas

for what it’s worth I think @MaddyV knows exactly what she wants to say. I don’t think it was a problem of perspective, but of definition. Her message was always clear in her head (see second-last paragraph of this post); she was just having trouble translating that to the Judgment point in a storyform, because of some conflicting information about what Judgment is .

you just summed it up as I was writing this post. Yes, what I meant by being able to see it as both good and bad was a matter of definition, not actual judgment. I am very certain that the efforts in this story are a good thing.