# Kishōtenketsu Plot without Conflict? **URL:** \ **Category:** Writing\ **Created:** [August 28, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192 "2017-08-28T18:54:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jassnip](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jassnip/32/452_2.png) [@jassnip](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jassnip)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/1 "2017-08-28T18:54:23Z")
Thoughts? Discussion? > **[Post by @stilleatingoranges · 2 images](https://stilleatingoranges.tumblr.com/post/25153960313/the-significance-of-plot-without-conflict)** > > 💬 32  🔁 16686  ❤️ 27001 · The significance of plot without conflict · In the West, plot is commonly thought to revolve around conflict: a confrontation between two or more elements, in which one ul… I think one of the author’s biggest problems is conflating conflict with violence. ---
**Author:** ![bobRaskoph](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/bobraskoph/32/75_2.png) [@bobRaskoph](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/bobRaskoph)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/2 "2017-08-28T20:30:31Z")
> [@jassnip](#): > > I think one of the author’s biggest problems is conflating conflict with violence Just to be clear, I don’t think the author is talking about physical force here. “Violence” in this context is about one thing dominating and imposing on another, possibly to the extent of silencing or absorbing it (they’re talking about Derrida, so I’m feeling confident about this). And if conflict is about two (or more) things that cannot coexist at the same time… I looked into Kishotenketsu a while ago. If I were to put the difference between “conflict-driven narratives” and “contrast-driven narratives” simply, I would do it like this: Conflict: **Thesis + Antithesis =\> Thesis** OR **Thesis + Antithesis =\> Antithesis** Contrast: **Thesis + Antithesis =\> Synthesis** Dramatica uses the first. A story is considered “broken” if both principle characters/perspectives change. One HAS to win over the other to be considered complete. If compromise wins out then it must be one of the perspectives in the first place. Kishotenketsu uses the second. You juxtapose two contrasting ideas and then connect them together. These ideas can coexist together. Neither of these two approaches is better than the other, and I don’t think the author is suggesting the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/3 "2017-08-28T20:46:00Z")
I think there is definitely something interesting here, but I have trouble using the word “plot” without a sense of what the goal is, or what the stakes are. It’s almost like this is something else. ---
**Author:** ![bobRaskoph](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/bobraskoph/32/75_2.png) [@bobRaskoph](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/bobRaskoph)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/4 "2017-08-28T20:53:51Z")
What is the ‘plot’ of “My Neighbor Totoro”? Goal? Stakes? ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/5 "2017-08-28T21:18:26Z")
Is this a general question, or is Totoro specifically kishotenketsu ---
**Author:** ![bobRaskoph](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/bobraskoph/32/75_2.png) [@bobRaskoph](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/bobRaskoph)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/6 "2017-08-28T21:20:05Z")
I have seen Totoro being analyzed using Kishotenketsu. Whether it was written using it, or whether it “is” kishotenketsu, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/7 "2017-08-28T21:26:38Z")
I consider that movie to have no plot or stakes. Just loveliness. ---
**Author:** ![kf27](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/kf27/32/1285_2.png) [@kf27](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/kf27)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/8 "2017-08-29T15:25:02Z")
I think Kishōtenketsu Plot is more like a storyweaving technique:“Meaning Reversals” > **[Storytelling Trick #3 of 50 – “Meaning Reversals”](http://dramaticapedia.com/2016/11/15/storytelling-trick-3-of-50-meaning-reversals/)** > > Trick 3 Meaning Reversals (Shifting Context to Change Meaning) Reversals change context. In other words, part of the meaning of anything we consider is due to its environment. The phrase, guilt by … ---
**Author:** ![bobRaskoph](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/bobraskoph/32/75_2.png) [@bobRaskoph](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/bobRaskoph)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/9 "2017-08-29T16:04:30Z")
> [@kf27](#): > > I think Kishōtenketsu Plot is more like a storyweaving technique:“Meaning Reversals” I disagree. It is not about reversing or changing meaning. The [wikipedia article on it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kish%C5%8Dtenketsu) gives two okay examples. ---
**Author:** ![jhull](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jhull/32/3_2.png) [@jhull](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jhull)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/10 "2017-08-29T22:07:04Z")
What a great article. Looking through the lens of Dramatica’s Storymind concept, it looks like the Author is talking about the difference between Companion Pairs and Dynamic Pairs. The West favors Dynamic Pairs, which is why the current model is setup with that bias in mind. Both Chris and Melanie mention the possibility of other models with different biases in place–this preference for Companions being one of them. The example given in the article is still considered “conflict” within the definition of Dramatica–specifically the idea that all conflict comes from context and an inequity between things. Someone should start working on developing the different SuperClasses…(bias other than Dynamic/K)… ---
**Author:** ![Prish](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/prish/32/33_2.png) [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:46am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/11 "2020-07-07T03:46:23Z")
> [@MWollaeger](#): > > I have trouble using the word “plot” without a sense of what the goal is I want to thank you because all of a sudden I am remembering a European non-English movie I went to by myself about 15 years ago, where I thought nothing happened (she went to a party, talked to people, got asked out on a date that was to take place in the future, then soon after at the film’s end she walked out by herself spreading her arms in joy). I walked out of the theater, telling a stranger leaving at the same time. “I can’t believe that this movie got made! Nothing happened.” He smiled, “Some films are about a slice of life.” So thank you because now I see her goal was to have a social life (must have been). Getting asked out on a date reached that goal and provided the plot summary (or what ever). ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/12 "2020-07-07T17:23:37Z")
Maybe. I see your larger point here. The analogy in my life is that I was brought up in the industry with people telling me that all stories were quests and unless they got something, then there was no motivation for the protagonist. When I stumbled across Dramatica, and saw that _Conceptualizing_ could be an _OS Goal_ it all tumbled into place for me. (Well, it took years to fall into place, but I could see what was at least possible at that point.) BUT, “slice of life” stories are generally not storyformable. They aren’t Grand Argument Stories, any more than any given day is a story because (luck aside) anything with arbitrary starting and ending points won’t be a story. ---
**Author:** ![Prish](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/prish/32/33_2.png) [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/13 "2020-07-07T17:59:01Z")
Would it be a tale? Or would it be the beginning of a tale … haha. Are tales just one quad? I forget. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/14 "2020-07-07T18:10:56Z")
I tend to think of things on a gradient. Something that is _almost_ a Grand Argument Story is deficient. Something that is missing a lot of things is a _Tale_. I don’t generally find a lot of middle ground between these two though. There are complete stories. Then there are deficient stories, which miss a few points, like having a poorly defined _Limit_. Then you have _Tales_. These tend to lack _Main Characters_ or at minimum, don’t have an _Impact Character_. (I see a ton of these when I read young writers in Hollywood.) I haven’t come across anything that is missing a lot of points, but has the MC and IC. Unless they are weird in that they have no RS. But I see that as a different design problem. But then you have things that make me cringe. They flip _Start/Stop_ or something. So they are basically complete, but they’re uncomfortable and clearly the result of some weird rewrite. Some stories, like _Ida_, seem to be missing one signpost from one throughline, but the experience is still fine. Just hits a bump. ---
**Author:** ![Prish](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/prish/32/33_2.png) [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/15 "2020-07-07T19:29:59Z")
I’d say it had no impact character. But memory is constructive according to my Cognition psych prof. It was kind of a famous foreign movie at the time, and I’m trying to track it down. Of course I forget the title. Being so popular at the time, I just have to figure out ‘why’ … haha. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/16 "2020-07-07T21:34:10Z")
It’s either a GAS or it hit some emotional/cultural bull’s-eye. I think those are the only reason things get hugely popular. ---
**Author:** ![Prish](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/prish/32/33_2.png) [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:31am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/17 "2020-07-12T02:31:04Z")
So, I am determined to track it down because either it was GAS or it was because FINALLY a foreign film that was not a downer with a realistic bleak ending … haha … and I HAVE to know. ---
**Author:** ![pattyloof](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/pattyloof/32/1464_2.png) [@pattyloof](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/pattyloof)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 2:23pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/18 "2020-10-19T14:23:31Z")
I just ran across this discussion and find the concept fascinating! [This article mentions Kiki’s Delivery Service as an example](https://mythicscribes.com/plot/kishotenketsu/). Having not seen the show I’m not sure if this is true, but I thought it might help. ---
**Author:** ![mlucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mlucas/32/275_2.png) [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/kishotenketsu-plot-without-conflict/1192/19 "2020-10-19T19:11:14Z")
I loved _Kiki’s Delivery Service_! I watched it a few years ago and felt that it definitely had a Dramatica storyform. One thing I remember thinking is that the MC’s Change (I felt Kiki was a Change character) came quite early in the narrative, and the rest was about her sticking with it.