# Lord of the Rings - Frodo's drama
**URL:** https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436
**Category:** Analysis and Review
**Created:** [September 15, 2015, 11:26am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436 "2015-09-15T11:26:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@cysto](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/cysto)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/101 "2019-08-27T01:55:55Z")
> [@mlucas](#):
>
> I’m pretty darn convinced the OS Problem is Temptation, BTW, but it’s always good to keep an open mind. I’m somewhat less than 100% on Resolve and therefore what the MC vs. IC Problem is.
But this still leaves you with a weak and unconvincing RS. You and Lakis have argued for a steadfast Frodo, rewarded for his steadfastness, but this requires a changed Sam which isn’t the case.
Whether the OS is Temptation or Activity for me could go either way in itself, but when you consider the RS i think OS can therefore only be Activity, which still fits.
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### Author:  [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/102 "2019-08-27T15:14:53Z")
> [@cysto](#):
>
> Whether the OS is Temptation or Activity for me could go either way in itself, but when you consider the RS i think OS can therefore only be Activity, which still fits.
?? Are you getting Temptation mixed up with Psychology? I think we all agree on the OS in Activity (Physics) and the RS in Psychology. Temptation comes under Physics/Obtaining/Morality (same OS problem quad as _The Matrix_).
To me, Becoming works really well for the RS between Sam and Frodo. Even though they do start out as friends, the point of the relationship is how it becomes something much more than that initial friendship, and the struggles that come from that change of nature. It’s almost like friends → brothers.
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### Author:  [@Lakis](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Lakis)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/103 "2019-08-27T20:11:25Z")
Also Galadriel. And Gollum too—remember those scenes where he’s arguing with himself?
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### Author:  [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/104 "2019-08-27T20:45:35Z")
> [@cysto](#):
>
> that moment gave meaning to the act of not killing Gollum in the past?
I wouldn’t get a connection of meaning, since the grasping succumbing to temptation was immediate and totally personal. Maybe, it’s MC throughline, and Gollum spared in the past and finishing the task unintentionally is OS throughline?
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### Author:  [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/105 "2019-08-27T20:49:36Z")
> [@mlucas](#):
>
> It’s almost like friends -\> brothers.
And to caregiver? I wonder what it was when he was sent away.
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### Author:  [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/106 "2019-08-30T14:59:56Z")
I’ve been thinking about this a lot and browsing through the books, and had some ideas. What if instead of Temptation the OS Problem is Disbelief, mostly showing up as distrust and skepticism:
- initially the hobbits are skeptical that the Enemy could reach them all the way in the Shire
- initial distrust of Strider
- a lot of “being unpersuadable” and difficulty convincing – the Council of Elrond, Gandalf and Aragorn having trouble convincing each other about taking the mountain pass vs. Moria route
- doubting, like Gandalf doubted how bad Moria could be; or various characters (esp. Boromir) doubted whether a hobbit was the right choice of Ring-Bearer
- Sauron doesn’t believe they would ever try to destroy the Ring
This makes the OS Focus Temptation, which is a decent fit. I mean, they do talk about Temptation and “see” it as a problem a lot, not just Gandalf but a lot of others. @Lakis I think you had some other examples about Temptation -\> Conscience as Focus/Direction too?
And Faith is nice as the Solution in this story. Believing that Frodo can get the job done – so much so that they’re all willing to lay their lives on the line and march on Mordor. Getting Sauron to believe that the main threat is the army at his gates. The Crucial Element then becomes Conscience, which also feels right – doing the right thing instead of taking the easy road.
And for Sam as the Changed IC, it could be that he moves to a place where he has Faith _in himself_, where he’s the one getting the job done and listening to his own instincts.
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### Author:  [@Lakis](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Lakis)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/107 "2019-08-30T17:01:52Z")
> [@mlucas](#):
>
> @Lakis I think you had some other examples about Temptation -\> Conscience as Focus/Direction too?
We also see Gandalf and Galadriel resist their temptation (conscience). But you could make an argument that the real source of their problems is that they don’t trust themselves (disbelief) to carry the ring.
And even Boromir, after his failure, makes an effort to redeem himself (conscience).
EDIT: Isn’t Boromir’s justification for taking the ring a lack of faith (disbelief) in the plan?
> At length [Boromir] spoke… ‘If you wish… to destroy the armed might of the Dark Lord, then it is folly to go without force into his domain; and folly to throw away.’ He paused suddenly… ‘It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean,’ he ended…
But I could see that example both ways – disbelief could be symptom or response, with temptation as the real problem.
So I think there’s a pretty good case for your arrangement here @mlucas.
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### Author:  [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)
#### Post date: [August 30, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/108 "2019-08-30T17:11:31Z")
> [@Lakis](#):
>
> We also see Gandalf and Galadriel resist their temptation (conscience). But you could make an argument that the real source of their problems is that they don’t trust themselves (disbelief) to carry the ring.
Very cool. And note, just because it’s a source of conflict or drive for them, doesn’t mean it’s “wrong” – i.e. it doesn’t mean they _should_ have taken the Ring, just that this necessary disbelief is causing them difficulty. (A similar example is in the Fugitive when he Helps the misdiagnosed child, it’s not like the narrative is saying that was the wrong thing to do, just that it was doomed to cause difficulties for him until the Solution was brought in.)
Agree with you on the Boromir quote. Ah, poor Boromir!
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### Author:  [@Etherbeard](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Etherbeard)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/109 "2019-09-04T16:19:49Z")
> [@cysto](#):
>
> Sam is utterly loyal to Frodo and the quest the whole way through, so he doesn’t change (which is why i think he is a faith character), and Gollum remains obsessed by the ring the whole way through, so he also doesn’t change. I don’t think there is an argument for either of them being change characters, but i’d love to hear one.
I apologize if this has been addressed. I didn’t see it, if so.
I don’t recall the particulars from the books, but in the movies the argument for Sam’s change would be shown by his interactions with Rosie Cotton. In the beginning he wants to ask her out or whatever the Hobbit equivalent is, but he’s too shy and nervous and sits muttering about the advances made toward her by other Hobbits. In the end, in a scene mirroring a scene from the beginning, he approaches her. Here the behavior of Frodo, Merry, and Pippin is basically identical to the earlier scene.
Sam has moved on from being Frodo’s “batman” to forging a life for himself.
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### Author:  [@Lakis](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Lakis)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/110 "2019-09-04T17:39:28Z")
> [@Etherbeard](#):
>
> I apologize if this has been addressed. I didn’t see it, if so.
I thought I mentioned this upthread but I may have just thought it! In any case I’ll take it as independent support of Sam’s change! 🙂
> [@Etherbeard](#):
>
> mirroring a scene from the beginning
This can’t be an accident! Having a scene from the beginning mirrored at the end in this way feels like a pretty strong indication of the author’s intent to show change.
> [@Etherbeard](#):
>
> Sam has moved on from being Frodo’s “batman” to forging a life for himself.
Yes. He moves from Be-er (adapt yourself – kind of the definition of being a “batman”) to forging a life (Do-er). Also he moves from Subconscious (Innermost Desires – unrequited love) to Future (having a future for himself).
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### Author:  [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2024, 11:21pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/111 "2024-10-04T23:21:57Z")
I know this hasn’t been updated in 5 years (!) but I was referencing it recently on another forum and realized that although we landed on a final storyform and were very satisfied with it, we never really posted the details. I’m certain this is the correct storyform for the _Lord of the Rings_ book trilogy, I’ve gone back to it many times and everything seems to fit perfectly. In addition, @JohnDusenberry analyzed the movies and found the exact same storyform with one difference – the movies are Holistic/Female mental sex while the books are Linear/Male. (Probably showcases a difference between Tolkien and Peter Jackson as storytellers.)
Anyway, the book storyform is: `Steadfast, Stop, Do-er, Male, Decision, Optionlock, Success, Good, Obtaining, Disbelief`. (With a crucial element of `Temptation`.)
Note: I don’t know if we ever fully came to consensus on the Driver in this thread, but if you re-read the beginning it’s pretty clear that the First Driver is Bilbo deciding to retire & give up the Ring (even though he almost doesn’t 🙂 ), and the Final Driver is Sam deciding to spare Gollum. @JohnDusenberry can you confirm if you had Decision for yours? For some reason it’s not loading on Subtxt – thanks!
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### Author:  [@jhull](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jhull)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2024, 1:27am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/112 "2024-10-05T01:27:46Z")
Oh wow - this is incredible. Thanks so much Mike!
I did have the Storyform up in Subtxt, but removed it because I wasn’t sure about the Mental Sex - this explanation - about books Male, film Female is AWESOME!
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### Author:  [@jhull](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jhull)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2024, 1:31am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/113 "2024-10-05T01:31:20Z")
I put it back up, and will put up the novel version this weekend - thanks again!
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### Author:  [@Prish](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Prish)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2024, 9:42am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/114 "2024-10-05T09:42:28Z")
I sure noticed this after reading the books some years before, then watching the movies. I never could figure out emotionally what that difference was, and being they both were spectacular events in my life, I wasn’t inclined to force my mind to consider them analytically. You know how that goes … haha. Thanks!
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### Author:  [@bobRaskoph](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/bobRaskoph)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2024, 11:05am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/lord-of-the-rings-frodos-drama/436/115 "2024-10-05T11:05:57Z")
I don’t know why, but I think that’s rather amusing: [Akeelah and the Bee - Analysis - Dramatica](https://dramatica.com/analysis/akeelah-and-the-bee)
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