Plot Progression vs Storyweaving

theory
#1

I’ve seen it posted elsewhere on the board that, when it comes to the signposts and the order that they’re in, the signposts reflect the story-world chronology of events in a story. I even came to understand this when I finally found the right storyform for the story that I’m revising.

But I’ve also seen multiple instances of the signposts being used as the context for the exploration of throughline problems in each act. Even in the Dramatica software, it seems like the examples used in the StoryGuide are using signposts as a way to show how things progress in the story as it’s being told.

There’s also the idea of storyweaving itself. If signpost X of each throughline must be explored before moving on to the next act, that means that the signposts have to go in a certain order. But with storyweaving, we’re allowed to mix things up? If that’s the case, wouldn’t that mess up the actual plot progression? Or is it that, while the event that’s being shown to the audience isn’t necessarily showing the actual source of conflict as described by the signpost, the event itself is being caused by the source of conflict from that signpost?

Take mysteries, for example. If the signposts represent the story-world chronology, then how are we supposed to explore those same signposts in that same order without revealing the answers? And if the signposts are just the sources of conflict for each act as the events are revealed to the audience, then would that mean that the signposts are more about the things that need to happen to reach the goal, and not the actual progression of events?

I guess I’m just trying to reconcile things in my head. But if the story doesn’t follow the plot progression/signpost order in the way that it’s revealed to the audience, does that mean that it’s using a different order, or that the actual signposts are beneath the events that are being revealed?

#2

I’m super confused.

Your first two paragraphs seem to be describing the same thing. Yes they’re the “chronology” of story events, and yes they’re context for the Throughlines storypoints.

Space and Time. Context and chronology.

Oh, also.

Stories aren’t real.

Dramatica found character, plot, theme, and genre to be analogies to problem-solving, and the process of telling a story to be an argument for a particular way of solving a problem.

So the argument itself maintains a certain progression to answer both logistical and emotional concerns of the receiver. Appreciating the order in which the argument proceeded—regardless of how it is revealed—is why a film like Memento will mean the exact same whether it’s presented in its original release order, or whether or not it was arranged in the order in which it all really happened.

#3

Could you expand on that? I kind of have the same question: if the underlying story chronology of a murder was:

  1. Joe and Frank fought over control of their company
  2. Joe murdered Frank and hid the evidence
  3. Detective Helen is assigned to investigate the crime and finds clues.
  4. Helen finally puts together that it must’ve been Joe who killed Frank.

But in a mystery story, the actual movie or novel would go something like:

  1. Detective Helen is assigned to investigate the crime and finds clues.
  2. Joe and Frank fought over control of their company
  3. Helen finally puts together that it must’ve been Joe who killed Frank.
  4. Joe murdered Frank and hid the evidence

So the question (for me, anyway) is if the Dramatica progression screen shows 1-2-3-4, am I supposed to ignore that when writing the book or screenplay and instead write 3-1-4-2 (since the former might hold the same argument but would make for a crappy mystery.)

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Flashbacks, Backstory & Reveals
#4

Totally. And for that exact reason.

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Flashbacks, Backstory & Reveals
#5

Great example, Sebastian!

@adanawtn there’s not much to add except to say a) you are only confused because you’re overthinking it and b) don’t feel bad as it confuses everyone when they first try to understand this.

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#6

This is kind of what I was getting at, and I can see how that works.

I think I’m just confused because I’ve been seeing a lot of examples for story analysis where the signposts are used to describe what’s going on in that act. It just makes me wonder if there are multiple ways of looking at the signposts that I’m not seeing. As in, for the underlying structure of the story, the argument has to follow this progression, but the subjective story also follows the signposts in their own way?

#7

Well, more often than not the story is told in a linear fashion. And the signposts often do fit what’s going on, because objectively they’re both a source of conflict and an area of exploration for that portion of the story.

The fact that a signpost, or any story point, is described from the Author’s point of view, doesn’t mean that the characters can’t see it the same way. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. OS Signpost 4 of The Princess Bride is Conceptualizing (aka Developing a Plan) and Westley actually says “Impossible! If I had a month to plan, maybe … if only we had a wheelbarrow…” So there, the character actually recognizes that Conceptualizing is causing difficulties. But later, Humperdink experiences conflict from visualizing the attack on the castle (when he hears the sounds of fleeing soldiers during the wedding ceremony), causing him to “skip to the end” – skipping the actual wedding vows. There, he’s not really aware of the problems that Conceptualizing is causing.

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#8

I eventually came to this conclusion, but it explains a lot in terms of the disconnect I’m having right now. Maybe I am just overthinking it. Either that, or Dramatica isn’t really the thing that I need right now.

#9

In theory, addressing this problem is one of the great strengths of Dramatica. By explicitly separating structure from exposition (the order in which events are revealed to the audience), it provides a kind of clarity for storytelling that’s missing in other story paradigms (for the most part).

I say in theory. I’m still struggling with it myself though.

Chapter 22 in Armando’s book deals with this a bit and is worth reading.

#10

What is the disconnect you’re having? What problem are you trying to solve?

Also, it might help if you can restate how you understand the storyweaving of signposts into a different “reveal” order. Just to confirm your understanding.

#11

The problem that I’m actually trying to solve has more to do with connecting the events in the subjective story in a way that actually builds up to the climax and creates a compelling story. Being able to see the objective side of the story is great and all, but that doesn’t really address the issue that I’m actually having when it comes to writing. I actually found Dramatica when I first decided to try writing novels, and I’ve been trying to use it on and off for about four years now. And finding Narrative First and this board has been a real eye-opener. But I recently came back to Dramatica because I was looking for a way to actually tell a story, not just make an argument.

As for the storyweaving, I think I just hadn’t realized that most of the stories that are being talked about are told in a pretty linear fashion. As far as I understand it, storyweaving is simply a matter of putting the events of the story in whatever order that will create the emotional impact that you’re trying to have on the audience. And, if I’m getting this right, the signposts don’t really matter at that point.

I tend to write and like stories that move around a bit more, and seeing so many stories being analysed based on story events that match up to the signposts in the storyform was throwing me off a bit.

Don’t get me wrong. I like Dramatica a lot. And I’m really glad that I’ve found a place where I can nerd out about it with other people that actually get it (and know way more about it than I do). But I feel like I’m in this weird state of limbo where I can’t seem to be objective enough to identify story elements, but neither can I be subjective enough to illustrate those story elements and weave the events together to create that emotional resonance that I’m looking for. Which is a Me problem more than anything else.

I’m also having a hard time with scenes and events. There seem to be multiples ways to build scenes, which is sort of driving me up the wall. Add the fact that most of the stories that are being analyzed are movies, and that Dramatica seems to be geared towards screenwriting, and I feel utterly out of place. I’m used to seeing and writing stories with somewhere between 90 and 100 scenes, yet everyone keeps saying that Dramatica works well for novels. I just feel like I’m missing something, and I don’t know where to look to find it.

So… yeah.

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#12

The only thing I can offer is to suggest that maybe you are expecting too much of your conscious mind / left brain. Something like this: [quote=“adanawtn, post:11, topic:1786”]
neither can I be subjective enough to illustrate those story elements and weave the events together to create that emotional resonance that I’m looking for.
[/quote]

I wouldn’t really try to do consciously, except perhaps in a question/answer way (let my Muse come up with ideas, but I get to dismiss the ones that don’t fit, or ask for something slightly different).

As for scenes, most of the work is your own, sadly, but I do find a couple ways in which Dramatica can help.

  • When figuring out what the scene is about (outlining) ask yourself what throughline it is, and whether the conflict in the scene is somehow driven by throughline’s Problem (and/or Issue, Concern, Domain). I sometimes find this helps clarify the character motivations in the scene, even if the connection to the Problem is indirect.

  • If I run into trouble with a scene partway through, I can sometimes identify the quad that seems to fit the “events” of the scene so far. (I hate the word events for that, though; it’s not broad enough. Components would be better.) Sometimes that helps me figure out where to take the scene, or what elements of it to focus on. I’ll even try to identify the PRCO; even partial success there can be helpful.

#13

Melanie Anne Phillips says, The way in which to deliver a story to an audience, piece by piece, involves decisions about what to present first, second, and last. The potential strategies are countless: you may start with the beginning, as in Star Wars, or you my start with the end, as in Remains of the Day, or with some combination, as in The Usual Suspects. What you most want the audience to be thinking about will guide your decisions in this stage, because choices made here have the most effect on the experience of receiving the story as an audience member.

I think during story weaving you can start with signpost 2 then move to signpost 1 then move to signpost 4 then move to signpost 3

I think order of signposts is up to the author.

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#14

Just finished my storyform, looks pretty solid with argument and so … but have a question for weaving scenes

This is how my storyform looks for OS

  1. (Memory)
  2. (Preconscious)
  3. (Subconscious)
  4. (Conscious)

This is how my story weaving SHOULD look for OS

  1. Act: (Memory) Sce 1-9, all have to do with memories
  2. Act: (Preconscious/Subconscious)
    Sce - some have to do with Preconscious
    Sce - a few have to do with Subconscious
  3. Act: (Preconscious/Subconscious)
    Sce - a few have to do with Subconscious
    Sce - some have to do with Preconscious
  4. Act: (Conscious/Subconscious/Memory)
    Sce - a few have to do with Conscious
    Sce - a few have to do with Memory
    Sce - a few have to do with Subconscious

Wanted just to check in case I am getting off-track if I mix the scenes like that.

Scenes for MC/IC/RS I want to weave-in the same way.

Another question regarding weaving and PSR: If I have 9 scenes like in Akt 1 and want to use the PSR, how would this work? I just pick what works best?

Thanks.

#15

Hi @Gernot, not totally sure what you are asking here. Are the scenes at the end that have to do with Memory flashbacks to (or reveals of) events that occurred earlier, in the same time-frame as scenes 1-9 in Act 1? That would make them part of the same structural act as scenes 1-9 which totally works.

The mixing of Preconscious and Subconscious in your Acts 2-3 may just be because of the Slide, or seeing the Journey more than Signpost, which is also fine. Act 2 will be more shaded by Subconscious towards the end of it, and Act 3 will be more shaded by Preconscious towards the beginning of it.

Which is your OS Concern? Don’t forget that will have an overarching presence in all your Acts.

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#16

Yeah @mlucas I was seeing the slide too. Although @Gernot correct me if I’m wrong. You want to know if your storyweaving works right? If so, then I think it has to do with the message and kind of story you wish to tell. Depending on the effect you want to evoke in your audience and the meaning (how events are presented) of your piece, you might wish to arrange it with the guiding principles of storytelling. See Memento ( not presented in chronological order ) VS Collateral (signposts are presented in sequence).

So @Gernot if you’re inclined to share, what effect are you trying to evoke? This will guide the rest of us in helping you.

#17

Thanks @mlucas and @Khodu
Let me try to explain…

Which is your OS Concern? Don’t forget that will have an overarching presence in all your Acts.

The OS Concern is Subconscious / Dream, and the storyline is: A lifelong dream comes true when a group travels by car along the Australian west coast - but have to realize soon that their cars are used by drug dealers for their business

Depending on the effect you want to evoke in your audience and the meaning

  1. The OS storyline (Dream) asks the question: What does it really mean “realizing our dreams”
  2. The MC storyline (Morality) is about a woman on the trip who wants to meet her godchild and speak with her about her plans to marry a much older man
  3. The IC storyline (Responsibility) is about a independent man who wants to enjoy the trip and do all the things he ever dreamed off
  4. The RS storyline (Choice argues btw MC/IC if we can influence important decisions that have an influence on future developments?

My argument is: You are successful if you realize your dreams without giving up responsibility for others.

The OS Signpost are:
Memory – They remember what their dreams have been and go on a trip
Precocious – and they jump on everything (during the trip) what looks like their dreams (Nature, Countryside, People, Activities)
Subconscious – end they enjoy the ride and their dream - until suddenly they get scared (Police, Drug Dealers)
Conscious – and they to decide or run away from dreamland or not

I have a couple of scenes for example were all the characters remember (Memory) their dreams. But as not all character are present in Signpost 1 I only can bring this “Memories” scenes later (?).

Are the scenes at the end that have to do with Memory flashbacks to (or reveals of) events that occurred earlier, in the same time-frame as scenes 1-9 in Act 1?

What my OS character do, is to remember what they actually dreamed of and as they see something what looks like their dream they jump on it (decide to stay in Dreamland for ever, …)

seeing the Journey more than Signpost

Question: In that sense, Journey means the character “travel” through and experience the different signposts here and there … while Singpost means the character experience each Signpost after the other

Edited: Added Subconscious for Concern

#18

@Gernot I think @mlucas is asking which of the four Concerns under Mind (Memory, Subconscious, Preconscious, or Conscious) is the OS Concern.

#19

My mistake, it’s Subconscious, Dream as Issue

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