# Protagonist elements -- still important for complex protagonists? **URL:** \ **Category:** Support\ **Created:** [June 11, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/protagonist-elements-still-important-for-complex-protagonists/618 "2016-06-11T15:28:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mlucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mlucas/32/275_2.png) [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/protagonist-elements-still-important-for-complex-protagonists/618/1 "2016-06-11T15:28:14Z")
When I first got the software I was intimidated by the Build Characters screen and wasn’t sure if i would use it. Then I got the _Dramatica for Screenwriters_ book and the stuff in there around Build Characters seemed pretty cool, so I gave it a go. I’m glad I did – the exercises in that book (4 sets of questions and sample scene building around character wants, needs, how they do things and how they think) are very helpful. For some reason I’m not very good at building up characters purposely / consciously, and “character questionnaires” tend to block me. But those exercises work for me, and have really helped me get a deeper understanding of my characters. However, one question I have is about the archetype elements, especially the Protagonist ones. My characters are mostly tending to be complex rather than archetypes, but I was wondering if I should still try to make sure that the Protagonist elements (especially motivations Consider and Pursue) are represented by characters that non-Dramatica-versed readers would still think of as the protagonist(s)? i.e. the ones that are most obviously concerned with / pursuing the Story Goal? ---
**Author:** ![jamjam1794](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jamjam1794](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jamjam1794)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/protagonist-elements-still-important-for-complex-protagonists/618/2 "2016-06-11T16:23:21Z")
If I understand your question correctly (please correct me if I misunderstand), you’re asking if you should still have the archetypal ‘protagonist’ elements in the ‘protagonist’-esque complex characters? I don’t use the Build Character screen too much, and someone else will have a more certain answer than me, but I would assume that you don’t have to do that. Pursuing the Story Goal is an Objective Story thing, so the objective characters will be chasing it anyway – whether they have the ‘Pursue’ element or not. James Bond is, if I remember correctly, an antagonist in Dramatica terms but he’s the non-dramatics protagonist in the stories. It’s Dramatica, so it’s all about how you tell your story with the pieces you select. You could have a Spy story with a Contagonist main character if you really wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![LunarDynasty](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/lunardynasty/32/2515_2.png) [@LunarDynasty](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/LunarDynasty)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/protagonist-elements-still-important-for-complex-protagonists/618/3 "2016-06-11T20:26:16Z")
@jhull has a [great article](http://narrativefirst.com/articles/the-tragedy-of-james-bond-the-antagonist) about untangling this issue (including the notion of whether Bond is protag or antag). ---
**Author:** ![jhull](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jhull/32/3_2.png) [@jhull](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jhull)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/protagonist-elements-still-important-for-complex-protagonists/618/4 "2016-06-11T21:04:31Z")
> [@jamjam1794](#): > > James Bond is, if I remember correctly, an antagonist in Dramatica terms but he’s the non-dramatics protagonist in the stories. [James Bond is NOT the Antagonist](http://narrativefirst.com/articles/the-tragedy-of-james-bond-the-antagonist)–Aaarrrgghh! 😆 ---
**Author:** ![jamjam1794](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jamjam1794](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jamjam1794)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/protagonist-elements-still-important-for-complex-protagonists/618/5 "2016-06-11T21:24:26Z")
Gah! I apologize, Jim. I binge-watched the Dramatica Unplugged series a day or two ago, and I forget sometimes that the understanding of the theory has evolved since then. That’ll go on my list of things to ‘never say to someone that uses dramatica’, right next to “Save the Cat” and “The Revenant was a well-argued story” (although I’d never say that). ---
**Author:** ![jhull](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jhull/32/3_2.png) [@jhull](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jhull)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/protagonist-elements-still-important-for-complex-protagonists/618/6 "2016-06-11T21:28:27Z")
> [@jamjam1794](#): > > “The Revenant was a well-argued story” (although I’d never say that) 😆 😆 ---
**Author:** ![jhull](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jhull/32/3_2.png) [@jhull](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jhull)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/protagonist-elements-still-important-for-complex-protagonists/618/7 "2016-06-11T21:32:58Z")
And I should reiterate that theoretically Melanie is right (obviously), but in practice it doesn’t play out. I have articles where I argue for Hiccup being the Antagonist in _How To Train Your Dragon_. I’m came about this conclusion in large part because `Consequence: Conceiving` feels more accurate than the `Goal:Learning`. Protagonists move towards the Goal, Antagonists move towards the Consequence. It’s clear that Hiccup is moving towards making people get the idea that dragons can be friends and worked with, not _learned_. Most Bond films have a `Goal:Obtaining`. I don’t think Bond as an “Antagonist” is really working to Change the Nature of Something as a `Consequence:Becoming` would require. It just doesn’t play out. ---
**Author:** ![mlucas](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mlucas/32/275_2.png) [@mlucas](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/mlucas)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/protagonist-elements-still-important-for-complex-protagonists/618/8 "2016-06-12T00:11:15Z")
Thanks everyone. Jamie, you definitely got my question – thanks for putting it into a succinct sentence better than I could. Brant thanks for the pointer to Jim’s Bond article. Makes sense. It’s a good thing I had read Jim’s other article about the true nature of the inciting incident first (took a few reads before I really grasped it). That made the James Bond article a lot easier to understand! So bottom line, I won’t worry too much whether Pursue and Consider fall on my protagonist-esque characters. If they do, great, otherwise, no big deal.