The long awaited Incredibles 2

analysis
#102

So, here’s what I just realized: That law is a source of conflict. However! It’s a source of conflict for “Us” in the family, and if the politicians can’t accept supers, then family will learn that it’s okay to do things illegally. This is even shown when Bob starts to steal his own car from some rich mook (in front of Dash), or Violet asks about Helen’s new, illegal, job.

In other words, the most strained parts of the familial relationships show up when they discuss their hero efforts, and the law (in one form or another) is brought up nearly every time. Also, there is a minor bit of relationship with Jack-Jack and Bob that has it’s own problems due to the baby “breaking the rules” of usual super-babies. Edna Mode even said “He’s an usual case, Robert.” (Actually, she agreed to Bob’s opinion that Jack-Jack’s an unusual case, but same diff.)

The law isn’t a problem for “Them.” No real conflict ever comes up between the politicians, who Winston is trying to convince, because of this law. In fact, “they” barely spoke about this law. The “Them” isn’t the public, but the politicians! The question they all keep asking themselves, really, is what should be done about the supers? And mostly, it’s “Can they be trusted? Should they be trusted?” It’s this way of thinking that brings trouble within “society” (where society refers to the newscasters and ambassadors, etc.). Moreover Screenslaver is against this way of thinking.

This is why it’s so stinkin’ weird!

I am now squarely, 100% convinced the OS is in Psychology (Conceiving, most likely) and the RS is in Physics (Learning, most likely).

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#103

#104

Are you using the Dramatica “they”? As in the OS perspective?

#105

Yep. Really, the group “They” in this movie happens to be those who are in a position of perceived authority. Cops, the government, ambassadors, newscasters, etc. The one time we really see the public doing anything is when it’s a rally, which is again, a source of perceived authority. And even then, it’s in service to changing the way the higher-ups think about supers.

#106

Then the “they” would be the Parr’s, Lucius, the Deavors, the supers on the boat, maybe a few others. All the characters/players in the story, wouldn’t it? I wouldn’t think the politicians would really be included in “they”.

#107

You would think, but this movie doesn’t show much conflict between them, until you add in the government and politicians, who are the ones suppressing the supers because they believe the supers can’t save anyone without damaging the city. This is even directly acknowledged in the scenes following the Underminer fight. Add to that the fact that the ambassador that was attacked is the one who fully and openly supports the supers, and I think this is a lock.

I suspect this is another one of the weird things going on in the movie.

(And, even if you wanted to make the case that “They” doesn’t include the politicians, I’d say my argument still holds, as that law is only ever really brought up when we’re dealing with the Parr family. You could even replace the word “politicians” with “supers” and get the same argument. Sure, the law is mentioned a couple of times by Winston and the others, but I think that’s more like backdrop. There’s a post somewhere on here about a man and a dog trying to get a cheese burger in a war zone. I think this is like that, but in reverse.)

[Edit: Found the post. Quick story development using dramatica chart]

In other words, this movie appears to be in the same Genre (and, yes, I do mean Genre) as Captain America: Civil War, but flips it on it’s head.

#108

The conflict is Screenslaver. Trying to change the law creates conflict between those trying to chamge it and Evelyn who not only wants to stop them from succeeding, but tells Elastigirl that she wants to use her to make supers illegal forever.

If they weren’t trying to change the law, there’d be no need to change perception. If they weren’t trying to change the law, there’d be no Screenslaver to fight against. It all goes back to that. The politicians themselves don’t need to experience conflict because the story is about the Parr and Deavor families. The politicians are just there as part of the conflict-arresting the Parr’s, cancelling the Relocation Program, being attacked by Screenslaver, etc.

I’m thinking the reason the movie felt over is because all the dignitaries were there to sign the law and now that Evelyn has been captured, there’s nothing stopping them. Personally, I remember thinking ‘the movies not over right? They still have to sign the law.’

#109

Screenslaver is the antagonist for sure. However, if we use “They” with the supers, then what brings about the conflict the new supers have to deal with? Their struggles are presented as being outcasts and having to hide who they are. They cannot be. Dash has the same drive, as explored at the dinner table. The conflict between Frozone and the kids is developed from Evelyn’s machinations and Winston’s ideas.

Well, these machinations exist because of the law. Do they really? Let’s say the law didn’t exist at the start of the movie. The supers would still have their bad image due to the Underminer collateral damage, and Winston would still be looking to improve their image. Abolishing the law cannot solve the problem as presented in the first driver, if you consider this movie alone.

They signed the papers first, while on the boat, then Screenslaver presented the supers as angry, bitter, and resentful for having been suppressed. Removing this control and having the supers save the city without more destruction, thus showing that the trust that had been placed in them was correct, resolves the story. There is nothing left to do, at least as far as the city and the supers are concerned. The only thing left needed story-wise is showing Violet and the family are okay.

I’m wondering if this is either not a GAS, or if it tried to fill in a second story and missed the target. If the two movies are taken together, the law as a whole seems integral. When this movie is taken by itself, though, the law is kind of just there (and ignored by most characters).

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#110

Maybe we should just find another movie that we’re all pretty sure is a GAS and discuss it with the same fervor. I’m about Incredible’d out for now. I can’t get that little riff from the theme to stop playing in my head. Doo-doot do-da-doo!

#111

I think I watched the wrong movie, or entered the twilight zone and watched some alternate universe version. That law was all throughout the movie I watched.

#112

That, and the apparent wavering still existing on the MC and IC, I think is significant indication that this movie probably has two broken story forms. One with RS and OS in Psychology and Physics, and the other with these swapped. (Because I didn’t see that when I watched it last night.)

Or that the law storyform that you’re seeing could be part of a larger form that tries to connect the two movies.

If I were to try to write an ad for this movie, here’s what I’d come up with:

This is a story about heroes who are trying to improve their public image so they can be legal again,
but there’s a new villain who is taking over their minds and causing them to endanger the public. Can
the supers overcome the mind-control and show that they are capable of saving the public without mess?

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#113

My brother and I watched this last night, and he said some very interesting things.

  1. He said he felt like there were actually two stories, a family one, and a Screenslaver one.
  2. He said the family story felt “full”, but the Screenslaver story felt “finished”. (His words.)
  3. He said the family story felt a lot like the story in Captain America: Civil War.

In response to this, I did some critical thinking, and came to a conclusion. I think he’s right. I think there is a full story form in regard to the family, but I’m undecided in regard to the Screenslaver, still.

I also think that the reason for all of the discussion in this thread about the OS is actually due to bleed-over from the family story.

The Family Story

The Main Character is Bob, while the Influence character is Helen & Violet. (That’s like Cars!)

The Change character is Helen & Violet. Violet’s is the clearest change in the movie. At first, she can’t stand looking after Jack-Jack, and is seriously unhappy when hero business gets in the way of getting to know Tony. In the end, though, she hangs back to protect Jack-Jack, and later, literally pushes Tony out of the car to take care of hero business. This is mirrored by Helen’s choice to leave the kids in Bob’s hands at the climax, and with a smile about it, after worrying from the start of the movie about doing this.

The relationship is the father/daughter relationship between Bob and Violet and the marriage between Bob and Helen.

Now, my brother said this part of the story felt a lot like Captain America: Civil War, and it turns out, that I think he’s right on the money in terms of Genre. I tried other Domain arrangements, but none seemed to fit as well as this one.

  • OS (Physics) - Dash messing with tech; Jack-Jack manifesting his powers; Helen’s hero work. They all cause problems within the family
  • MC (Universe) - Bob is stuck at home watching the kids, which is a serious chip on his shoulder, but he can’t admit this to himself.
  • IC (Mind) - Helen’s worries about the kids; Violets worries about Bob’s mental health. These contribute to Bob’s possible breakdown.
  • RS (Psychology) - The relationships ebb and flow in response to how they think about their family.

Now, this is where I think that Incredibles 2 and Captain Amercia: Civil War differ. I think the first is in the upper-right, as opposed to the lower-left.

  • OS (Doing) - Dash’s being unable to do his homework, Jack-Jack’s continually using his powers, etc.
  • MC (Progress) - Bob’s progression and backtracking as a good parent.
  • IC (Preconscious) - Helen’s and Violet’s worries and jitters about the kids.
  • RS (Being) - The relationships (father/daughter, marriage) are strained as each tries to live up to expectations (or denies doing so) within the given relationship. This is much more pronounced in the father/daughter relationship.

With this arrangement, I’d say the Story Goal is “Maintain (or Look After) a Family (of Supers).” In addition, I have some ideas on what the Issues would be, and I really like the results from those issues. Same with the Problem set.

However, I know the post is long, again, so I first wish to look for feedback on this idea.

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#114

This is an interesting take. It’s certainly a better frame for the Resolve (Violet’s Change in particular).

I feel like this could be stronger, but if the Goal is Doing, then the Consequence is Being (i.e. the Parrs would have to go back to being normals again, which Violet’s in favor of at first) and that seems to track.

Hmmmm

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#115

I do, too, but I seriously like the Consequence, especially with how you framed it.

#116

I know no one agrees, which is fine, but if anyone’s interested in where I would take the storyform when going below Domains, I came up with the following. It’s not super strong, and I don’t like a lot of the storyform choices the below leaves me with, but again, it’s probably a broken story and I do like that I can see where I think the story is broken with this form (the OS is the strongest while the other throughlines feel anywhere from a bit weaker to a lot weaker within the story. But biggest problem of all, i decided that Bob feels like he grows rather than changes meaning there is no change character in my view). I don’t plan to discuss any further unless specifically called upon to do so.

OS Physics

Everyone is concerned with making supers legal. Winston is heading the effort (protagonist) and Evelyn is trying to make supers illegal forever (antagonist). The efforts to make supers legal leads to conflict with Screenslaver/Evelyn.

Although at a Genre level the story looks like it could be about about achieving, or Obtaining, legal status, the Plot is about how what they are Doing creates conflict. Elastigirl doesn’t go out on the street with an objective to Obtain, she is out the to protect the city (Doing) and this leads to the attack on the train. Putting Elastigirl on tv, catching Screenslaver (Doing by Obtaining), otherwise putting the supers in front of the public, and holding a summit on the hydrofoil all lead to various conflict with Screenslaver/Evelyn.

Bob values his own skills, while Winston would prefer the public to has a certain experience, particularly one the includes less structural damage. He wants to put camaras on the supers’ suits so the public can share in the supers’ experience.

The politicians and police are driven by the effects the supers have on infrastructure-esp. structural damage. Winston is driven to produce an effect on the public. Helen is driven by the effect her absence will have on her family. The solution is to prevent the hydrofoil from causing extensive damage by crashing into the shore.

Driven by effect, Winston is focused on how Gazerbeam and Fironic didn’t show up to save his father when called and Evelyn is focused on how her father didn’t take her mother immediately to the safe room. Winston tells Bob not to test the whole “insurance will pay for everything” idea. His whole idea is basically testing the supers to see if they can save the day responsibly.

Focused on test, Winston and crew put efforts into gaining back the public’s trust.

On their way to the goal, the Incredibles learn how to work as a team. The kids stop fighting over babysitting. Vi tells Bob she knows what to do, that she needs to wait on deck until she’s needed and not get in the way or whatever. At the end, Helen is okay with the kids going with them.

MC Mind

Bob thinks he should be the face of the project, that he should be the one supporting the family, which leaves him frustrated with his role.

Actually, Bob is easily frustrated (preconscious) by all sorts of things (they changed math, for one).

But he is driven to succeed, or be effective, at home so that Helen can succeed so that supers can succeed. He should eventually cause something, or be a cause or prevent a cause (personally, he helps prevent the hydrofoil from causing damage, but this doesn’t feel personal), or have a cause.

Driven to be effective, Bob should be focused on Unproven. He seems to be focused on how he’s more proven than Elastigirl? Or that she isn’t as proven as he is? In the end, he asks Helen “aren’t you going after (Evelyn)?” showing growth from being focused on his own proven ability to seeing her as having proven herself as face of the campaign (needs better wording).

IC Universe
Helen/Elastigirl influences others (or hopes to) through her situation as face of the campaign to make heroes legal. By wearing a suit-cam, she is giving others a view of the struggle. By Through her efforts, she is influencing the public to change the law thus influencing the situation/Universe of others. Her influence on Bob comes through her position as monetary provider for the family. She seems to want to bring things to an end. To stop Screenslaver, to stop being a hero and rush home at the first sign of trouble. There’s some line where she says something to the ambassador about bringing peace, and the ambassador replies “as soon as you end crime” or something. That doesn’t feel very strong, though.

RS (Parents) Psychology
The relationship grows or changes through conversations about whether its right or wrong to break the law, when Bob says he’s better at being a super, when Bob changes the way he parents, etc.

#117

It’s funny the domains you chose. When examining the Screenslaver stuff by itself, after my “Family Story” analysis, those are the same domains I would choose, when dealing with Screenslaver stuff.

I think the reason that the Screenslaver OS feels so much like Psychology (and looks like it) is the bleed-over from the family story. We would have (parts of) the family as a relationship here, but the family story itself is overall in Physics (seen through the lens of Psychology, as the PSR indicates for the choices I have made). This would cause us to want to push the OS into Psychology, even though, I now agree, it probably shouldn’t be, when dealing with the Screenslaver stuff.

I also noticed that it is true that some character or another brings up the law at least once in every half-hour section of the movie. I maintain, as you do, that the Screenslaver story is broken, though. (I cannot settle on whether Bob or Helen is the MC or IC in this part of the movie.)

I still think that there is the Family Story that is complete. This post (plus the Rotten Tomatoes score) was my additional argument for that.

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#118

Hey, what a fun idea. I haven’t had time to see the film or to really read most of these posts. It might be fun to make a story form when I finally do see the movie and see how it compares, also.

#119

Okay @Greg, your persistence (and @hunter’s counter-suggestions) have lead me to question my own convictions on this one. Nonetheless, just for comparison, here’s the storyform I would have chosen which I think aligns with what @mlucas @Etherbeard and others (sorry if I missed someone else, it’s a long thread) suggested initially. Maybe at some point if he ever has time we can get some more input from Jim and see who (if any of us!) is on the right track (or if it’s just broken). I’m quoting from the thread to adding just a few illustrations.

At some point I’ll have to watch it again and see if this still works.

THE OBJECTIVE STORY THROUGHLINE: Letting Supers Be Super Again

Objective Story Synopsis:
DRIVER: Action
LIMIT: Optionlock
OUTCOME: Success
JUDGMENT: Good

DOMAIN: Psychology - Everyone is concerned with manipulating public opinion on the supers.
CONCERN: Being - Can we let the supers be super again? (I would entertain Conceiving here per @jhay).
ISSUE: Desire vs. Ability

PROBLEM: Trust:

SOLUTION: Test

FOCUS: Determination
DIRECTION: Expectation
CATALYST: Thought
INHIBITOR: Worry
BENCHMARK: Becoming
SIGNPOST 1: Conceiving
SIGNPOST 2: Conceptualizing
SIGNPOST 3: Being
SIGNPOST 4: Becoming
GOAL: Being
CONSEQUENCE: Doing
COST: The Preconscious
DIVIDEND: Progress
REQUIREMENT: Becoming
PREREQUISITE: Obtaining
PRECONDITION: The Subconscious
FOREWARNINGS: The Future

MAIN CHARACTER THROUGHLINE: Bob

Main Character Synopsis:
MC RESOLVE: Steadfast

MC GROWTH: Start
MC APPROACH: Do-er
MC MENTAL SEX: Male
DOMAIN: Universe
Bob is stuck staying home with the kids when he thinks he should be out fighting crime.

CONCERN: Progress

I would add: the husband-staying-home role-reversal is a problematic illustration of “how things are changing” for Bob.

ISSUE: Threat vs. Security

I would add the Threats he causes to citizens and infrastructure, even as he’s just trying to save people and stop bad guys (Security).

PROBLEM: Theory

SOLUTION: Hunch
FOCUS: Determination
DIRECTION: Expectation
UNIQUE ABILITY: Fantasy
CRITICAL FLAW: Experience
BENCHMARK: The Future
SIGNPOST 1: The Future
SIGNPOST 2: The Past
SIGNPOST 3: Progress
SIGNPOST 4: The Present

OBSTACLE CHARACTER THROUGHLINE: Helen

Obstacle Character Synopsis:
OC RESOLVE: Change
DOMAIN: Mind
CONCERN: The Preconscious
ISSUE: Worry vs. Confidence

PROBLEM: Trust

SOLUTION: Test

FOCUS: Hunch
DIRECTION: Theory
UNIQUE ABILITY: Worth
CRITICAL FLAW: Desire
BENCHMARK: The Subconscious
SIGNPOST 1: Memory
SIGNPOST 2: The Subconscious
SIGNPOST 3: The Preconscious
SIGNPOST 4: The Conscious

SUBJECTIVE STORY THROUGHLINE: Super Family

DOMAIN: Physics - “Raising super kids”
CONCERN: Doing - “Who should be using their powers and when?”
ISSUE: Experience vs. Skill - Bob thinks he’s the more experienced crime fighter, but Helen’s skills are more appropriate for good P.R.
PROBLEM: Accurate

SOLUTION: Non-Accurate

FOCUS: Determination
DIRECTION: Expectation
CATALYST: Enlightenment
INHIBITOR: Threat
BENCHMARK: Obtaining
SIGNPOST 1: Understanding
SIGNPOST 2: Doing
SIGNPOST 3: Obtaining
SIGNPOST 4: Learning

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#120

How do the processes of Psychology and Trust lead to conflict within the OS?

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#121

Psychology: Everyone believes that everyone else has problematic ways of thinking about superheroes, and attempts to change that thinking by convincing (manipulating) others of that opinion. Winston and Evelyn’s different ways of thinking about supers is the source of the entire conflict of the film. From Evelyn’s perspective, her parents’ wrong thinking about superheroes was what led to their deaths, and this becomes her central motivation in secretly opposing Winston. Winston, meanwhile, believes if he can just get heroes better PR (i.e. change the public’s problematic thinking about supers), lawmakers will change the law and bring supers back. This attempt at getting better public relations is what draws Helen and the Incredibles into the story.

Trust: The trust that Winston and Evelyn’s parents put into the supers was what lead to their deaths (according to Evelyn). Winston puts his trust in Helen when he throws her out there with a camera on – essentially he says “just be super” and trusts that whatever she does will play well with public opinion. Meanwhile the Parrs trust Winston which leads them to get involved in the first place, in a scene that kind of screams “wait, why would you trust that guy?” (Seriously? That’s your plan? Hm, what could possibly go wrong?) And of course Helen trusts Evelyn. And I forgot - everyone is trying to get people to trust the supers again.

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