# The Old Guard: making the plot **URL:** \ **Category:** Analysis and Review\ **Created:** [July 13, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976 "2020-07-13T17:38:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:10pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/21 "2020-07-23T20:10:05Z")
I haven’t thought about it that way yet, but… MC: Andy MC Resolve: Steadfast. (Kiki decides not to call her family and gives the phone back: Change) MC Growth: ? PS Style: Linear Driver: Hmm… don’t they decide to take the job even though they don’t “do repeats”. But the appearance of Kiki, the betrayal, these all seem like ACTION. Andy decides to go fight even though her immortality is gone… I’d have to see it again Limit: Optionlock Success/Good ---
**Author:** ![jassnip](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jassnip/32/452_2.png) [@jassnip](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jassnip)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/22 "2020-07-23T22:36:09Z")
It isn’t the decision to go after the girls that is the problem. That’s why the opening shot is of her/them laying dead on the floor. Getting shot on camera exposing their immortality is their problem. Then we have a jump back in time showing how they got into the predicament. Had the writers just started with Andy walking through Marrakesh then you could make an argument for the decision, but they didn’t. The Action of the team dreaming about Freeman sends Andy after her. The attack on the church in Gussonville with the subsequent capture of Nicky and Joe push the story into act two. Booker shooting her and finding out she can’t heal push into act three and Freeman coming to rescue them takes the story into Act 4. Those are the points where the story shifts. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 11:28pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/23 "2020-07-23T23:28:29Z")
I agree that it seems like an _Action Driver_. Your theory about why it’s not deciding to get the girls, though, is not right. The story and the movie don’t proceed in parallel. The story is chronological, no matter how the movie is designed. The story does start with Andy walking through Marrakesh. ---
**Author:** ![jassnip](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jassnip/32/452_2.png) [@jassnip](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jassnip)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/24 "2020-07-24T00:01:17Z")
> [@MWollaeger](#): > > MC Growth: ? Okay, so only this piece left. The last piece of the puzzle is for them to keep going with what they’ve been doing. Andy has had her moment with Freeman where she tells her that she needed to remember what it felt like to be unbreakable/remarkable, that she needed the reminder that there are people worth saving. To me that is very start. It’s not enough to just stop Merrick. It’s that she’s not going to turn her back on humanity, several times she says humanity can eff itself or thereabouts. So it’s not stop. It’s starting/continuing to make a difference with Copley there to wipe away their footprints from the sand and the snow. So I’m gonna say if you take those parameters and put them into Dramatica what you get for OS choices are either Manipulation or Fixed Attitude, not Situation. > [@ObsidianTusk](#): > > I have understanding that a benchmark measures. Her friends are sequestered means I have no purpose in this world. Her friends are saved so then they have purpose. > > This is what you are saying? I am sorry to be pushy, but how does this attach to the map on the wall? This is my original question. She wants purpose and then ends the movie with purpose but in the middle she saves her friends only which maters a lot but is saving her friends the same thing as changing the world for the better? You think yes, yes? Nope, not what I am saying. Benchmark is if I or my friends are captured we cannot be closer to finding our purpose. Only if we are free can we make a difference. Seeing the board the shows the all the connections of the people they’ve saved and the good that came from that gives her and the team the motivation to keep going. There’s a line earlish in when they meet up and “it’s been awhile” and it gives the impression that the guys haven’t been out rescuing people, and that Copley’s offer is a welcome way to get back to it. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 2:57am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/25 "2020-07-24T02:57:30Z")
I’m sorry. I was thinking so much about Andy finding her worth that I accidentally said she was the MC. She’s not. Kiki is. ---
**Author:** ![jassnip](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jassnip/32/452_2.png) [@jassnip](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jassnip)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 3:34am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/26 "2020-07-24T03:34:03Z")
We’ll have to agree to disagree. Because I was with Andy, not with Freeman. However, even if that’s true. It still doesn’t put the OS into Situation. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 3:53am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/27 "2020-07-24T03:53:59Z")
Switching the MC wouldn’t affect the OS, regardless. The reason Kiki is the MC has to do with who has information, who doesn’t, and when we learn it. When Kiki has her dream, everyone knows about it except us and Kiki. That makes her the MC. Andy is a very compelling character though, which I think is creating this particular confusion. ---
**Author:** ![jassnip](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jassnip/32/452_2.png) [@jassnip](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jassnip)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 5:00am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/28 "2020-07-24T05:00:50Z")
My Dramatica Book pg 20 says that the MC is the character through whom the audience experiences the story. And that character was, for me, Andy. Her care for her team, “Is everybody still with me?” "Going to get Freeman. Her heartache over not having found/saved Quynh. Her skillz. Her scene with the girl in the pharmacy–“we’re not meant to be alone, you’ll help somebody next week.”. There is none of that kind of personalization for Freeman. It’s Andy’s realization that is needed at the end that it all hasn’t been for naught. It her choices I cared about. So I repeat, agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 6:02am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/29 "2020-07-24T06:02:35Z")
Okay then, we disagree. ---
**Author:** ![jassnip](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jassnip/32/452_2.png) [@jassnip](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jassnip)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 5:48am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/30 "2020-07-25T05:48:44Z")
> [@MWollaeger](#): > > Have you ever read Feynman talk about Flowers? I think that’s relevant here. > > @jassnip I think our differing perspectives here have led me to something cool, but I’m going to let you answer the plot question first. Okay, I’ve watched his bit on flowers…science adds to the aesthetic appreciation of a flower…what’s your something cool? ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 6:11am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/31 "2020-07-25T06:11:05Z")
I need you to answer the plot question first. I mean, I guess I don’t _need_ you to, but I think it’s smarter to have you answer it first. ---
**Author:** ![jassnip](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jassnip/32/452_2.png) [@jassnip](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jassnip)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 7:28am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/32 "2020-07-25T07:28:32Z")
Not sure how detailed you want me to be. An immortal band of warriors take on a rescue mission that turns out to be a setup to expose their immortality by a man suffering a broken heart. After they dispatch their would be killers, they dream of the awakening of a new immortal, the first in over 200 years. Their leader picks up the newbie then meets the others at a safe house in France. One of their own betrays them, two are captured and taken to a pharmaceutical facility in London to be experimented on to unlock the secret to their immortality. The leader and betrayer find the man who set them up to begin with. The newbie unable to accept her new status as an immortal decides to go home, but discovers the betrayal and heads back to help the leader. The betrayer betrays again, hoping the experimental research will find a way to end their immortality, to end his personal grief. He shoots the leader to subdue her but she’s lost her immortality and doesn’t heal. The two are captured by the pharma CEOs goon squad and taken to the lab. The newbie makes her way back to the house of the man who set them up, who has had a change of heart. He takes the newbie to the lab and she frees the others. They all escape together. I would like to point out that this is the plot only and not the story, which I haven’t touched on. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/33 "2020-07-25T17:36:20Z")
I expected something very different than this! Nothing you’ve said relates to the group looking for purpose or anybody going after their heart’s desire. Anyway, here is what I think is going on: you have picked up on the central theme and are confusing it for the things that going into the storyform. I think if we looked closely, we could relate everyone back to “mattering”. • Big Pharma matters because that’s where health comes from. That’s Merrick. • Andy wants to matter. • Nicky and Joe matter to each other. • Kiki is torn because she matters to her family and is going to have give them up. I think this is why the story is resonating with you. But as you’ve pointed out, it’s not the plot. ---
**Author:** ![jassnip](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jassnip/32/452_2.png) [@jassnip](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jassnip)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/34 "2020-07-25T18:49:06Z")
> [@MWollaeger](#): > > I expected something very different than this! Nothing you’ve said relates to the group looking for purpose or anybody going after their heart’s desire. You asked me for the plot, not the subtext/story, so that’s what I gave you. All the “mattering” (love that term, btw) is in the story, not the plot. > [@MWollaeger](#): > > Anyway, here is what I think is going on: you have picked up on the central theme and are confusing it for the things that going into the storyform. I thought that was the whole point of a storyform to give shape and substance to the themes. I don’t feel confused. Just out of curiosity, why do you keep calling Nile, Kiki? ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/35 "2020-07-25T20:01:44Z")
> [@jassnip](#): > > Just out of curiosity, why do you keep calling Nile, Kiki? Oh, whoops. Kiki is the actress’s name. > [@jassnip](#): > > You asked me for the plot, not the subtext/story, so that’s what I gave you. All the “mattering” (love that term, btw) is in the story, not the plot. The theme is still illustrated by the plot, and I can’t see any illustrations for the Types in the Fixed Attitude Domain. There are no conflicts between people with different fixed mindsets. My initial pitch of Universe was based entirely on things in the plot. My curiosity about this being in Physics comes from things in the plot (Obtaining the new immortal, Doing their job, Understanding their place in the betterment of the world…). The theme is intertwined with the plot. ---
**Author:** ![ObsidianTusk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f14d63/32.png) [@ObsidianTusk](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/ObsidianTusk)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/36 "2020-07-25T21:00:41Z")
O wow, this thread did not go directly to the point but I have my answer now. The reason that it is satisfying is because one cannot approach the theme directly. So if the theme is to have purpose then that has to be shown by having purpose. Nile must to learn to accept her new purpose. Andromache must do what she has always done and recognize that it has purpose. But one cannot force their life to have purpose. Tell my mother. She wants me to be a doctor!! Apologies @MWollaeger that I first called Nile Kiki. I think I confused you. But the actress is KiKi Layne, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@Jeremy](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Jeremy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 1:32am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/37 "2020-07-28T01:32:38Z")
It’s a tale. The end. Well, unless the OS is somehow Psychology. ---
**Author:** ![jassnip](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jassnip/32/452_2.png) [@jassnip](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jassnip)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 2:46am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/38 "2020-07-28T02:46:55Z")
You did see where I said the “Concern” was innermost desires, which would indeed put it in Fixed Attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@Jeremy](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Jeremy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 5:28am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/39 "2020-07-28T05:28:16Z")
> [@jassnip](#): > > You did see where I said the “Concern” was innermost desires, which would indeed put it in Fixed Attitude. I think the best way to see a tale is to let go of Dramatica, squint your eyes, and feel the shapes and colors that remain. The movie feels awkward/broken. Psychology and fixed attitude are not the same. I added the psychology comment as an afterthought, and I shouldn’t have. The lack in the story form tempted me to choose a less common OS in hopes that it would explain things. ---
**Author:** ![Skoodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@Skoodle](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Skoodle)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 3:25pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/40 "2020-07-28T15:25:13Z")
I’ve seen it. I haven’t given it much detailed thought but it struck me as having structural problems - a muddy section about 1/3 the way through in which character motivations are worked out (plus unconvincing conflict about the rescue as they had all been rescued) , and then unbalanced storylines, plus lots of instant jumping around between wildly different locations which gave it a disjointed feel. I wasn’t overly impressed generally, probably largely due to a woefully inappropriate and poorly structured soundtrack. Just watched Season 1 of Black Sun (Shadow over the Balkans) which shows how to do a soundtrack, and generally how to do just about every aspect of visual story telling. Actually Old Guard seemed like a bit of character and world introduction for a series of films (particularly with the way it ended). [Previous page](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976.md?page=1) [Next page](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976.md?page=3)