# The Old Guard: making the plot **URL:** \ **Category:** Analysis and Review\ **Created:** [July 13, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976 "2020-07-13T17:38:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/41 "2020-07-28T18:25:04Z")
> [@Jeremy](#): > > Well, unless the OS is somehow Psychology. Now all four domains have been proposed! > [@Jeremy](#): > > The movie feels awkward/broken. I have had this experience when the MC is _holistic_. I don’t think that’s the case here, but it’s possible. It’s possible that the fact that the movie is both a set-up for more and a story/tale on its own makes it feel imbalanced. > [@jassnip](#): > > You did see where I said the “Concern” was innermost desires, which would indeed put it in Fixed Attitude. You haven’t supported your position. ---
**Author:** ![jassnip](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jassnip/32/452_2.png) [@jassnip](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jassnip)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 7:14pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/42 "2020-07-28T19:14:21Z")
> [@MWollaeger](#): > > You haven’t supported your position. I thought I had. Lots ---
**Author:** ![Jeremy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@Jeremy](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Jeremy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 11:28pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/43 "2020-07-28T23:28:28Z")
Does it seem like they are always reacting? Couldn’t the CIA handler be the Protagonist? Is there any example in the Dramatica analysis database where the Protagonist and the MC are split and the Protagonist is largely off-screen? Does this type of situation lend itself to an MC that is a Be-er and Holistic? If so, that might explain why this feels structurally awkward to me. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2020, 11:58pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/44 "2020-07-28T23:58:16Z")
> [@Jeremy](#): > > Does it seem like they are always reacting? The idea that the Protagonist is always proactive is not right and comes from bad development executives who want an active protagonist. > [@Jeremy](#): > > Couldn’t the CIA handler be the Protagonist? The brief answer is no. But if you want to know why, ask yourself what the Story Goal is and who is going after it. > [@Jeremy](#): > > Is there any example in the Dramatica analysis database where the Protagonist and the MC are split and the Protagonist is largely off-screen? I’m sure there are more, but _Collateral_ jumps to mind. Mark Ruffalo’s character is the Protagonist. He shows up late and dies early, which results in a hand-off to Jaime Fox. > [@Jeremy](#): > > Does this type of situation lend itself to an MC that is a Be-er and Holistic? I’m not sure what situation you are referring to, but the answer is no. The use of the protagonist is not linked to the design of the MC. Maybe there is a storytelling reason, but I wouldn’t presume that to be true. > [@Jeremy](#): > > If so, that might explain why this feels structurally awkward to me. _Holistic_ main characters make me think stories are tales about half the time. I don’t think that Nile is _Holistic_ though there is an early scene after her recovery where she leaves and goes and listens to music—that’s fairly _Holistic_. I would have to think about other examples of how she deals with her personal story to know if she’s really _Holistic_ or not. Rolling out of the back of the Jeep? Highjacking the plane? What does she do in the church or cave? ---
**Author:** ![Jeremy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@Jeremy](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Jeremy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/45 "2020-07-29T01:55:20Z")
> [@MWollaeger](#): > > The brief answer is no. But if you want to know why, ask yourself what the Story Goal is and who is going after it. That’s just it. I’m not entirely sure what the story goal is. I’m not sure the writers knew either. There’s a lot in there about being immortal, being family, being a warrior, being alone. If it is just a tossup between Niles and Andy for the MC, then I think it is a tale. Andy is the more important of the two, but they put a lot of focus on Niles. Andy is steadfast. Niles is change. She even has a leap of faith at the end. Maybe Niles and the CIA handler could be the IC. Interesting too… I feel like the goal could be protecting your family or something like that and the movie could be Failure/Bad because of the last scene. She abandoned her friend under the ocean and she abandoned her right hand man. The last scene is pretty forboding. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@Jeremy](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Jeremy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:08am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/46 "2020-07-29T03:08:38Z")
I’m going with a tale. It seems way too piecemeal. I’ll be back when the pros come to a consensus. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 3:45am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/47 "2020-07-29T03:45:03Z")
> [@Jeremy](#): > > That’s just it. I’m not entirely sure what the story goal is. I’m not sure the writers knew either. The writer was entirely aware of what he was doing. The tricky thing is that this movie is actually somewhat like a pilot, in that it had to establish a series and satisfy the requirements of a single action movie. > [@Jeremy](#): > > There’s a lot in there about being immortal, being family, being a warrior, being alone. Yes, but none of this has to do with the goal per se. This is all World Building. The first sequence (walking in Marrakesh, meeting up with old friends and then accepting the job) is entirely related to Copley (ex-CIA) having a job for them. This is the beginning of the OS Story. The result of this job: they know they’ve been outed, they know it was Copley. They go to find Copley, and meanwhile, Copley has given his proof to Dudley Dursley, who then comes to capture them. The Antagonist wants to use their genetics to make money and save lives. The Protagonist wants to stop this. And she gets the Story Goal. > [@Jeremy](#): > > If it is just a tossup between Niles and Andy for the MC, then I think it is a tale. It’s not a toss-up. It’s Nile. _Dead Poets Society_ is another movie with a captivating _Protagonist_ that can get confused for the _Main Character_. On the other end, _The Producers_ is a movie with two clear contenders and almost no hints! But in both cases, a bit of sleuthing sorts it out. In this movie, like I said above, we know it’s Nile because we find out information when she finds out information. A good example of this is how she learns what “the signal” is. Everyone else knows, and this is her—as an MC—adjusting to this new role/family. > [@Jeremy](#): > > Andy is the more important of the two, but they put a lot of focus on Niles. Andy is the more important of the two _with regards to the Story Goal_ since she’s the Protagonist. The put a lot of focus on Niles _because she is our subjective point of view._ > [@Jeremy](#): > > Niles is change. She even has a leap of faith at the end. I think her problem revolves around her wanting to see her family, and at the end, she willingly hands over her phone. Are you referring to her following Andy after she sees that the gun isn’t loaded, and it’s set-up? It’s possible that this is part of it, too, since she doesn’t want to be a killer (like she saw Andy do at the church) but here she is going into a fire fight she knows will end with lots of bodies. > [@Jeremy](#): > > Maybe Niles and the CIA handler could be the IC. Well, Andy and the CIA hander (Copley) could be. > [@Jeremy](#): > > I feel like the goal could be protecting your family or something like that and the movie could be Failure/Bad because of the last scene. This Goal is a blurry version of the real goal, which is why I think it resonates. Handing out a 100 year sentence is after the Story is over, and it’s a bridge to the next movie. I think the ending is _Good_ because Nile comes willingly, Andy has found her purpose, Copley is forgiven… these seem good. The punishment is potentially a _Cost_? It certainly tempers the positive ending. > [@Jeremy](#): > > She abandoned her friend under the ocean and she abandoned her right hand man. The last scene is pretty forboding. She abandoned her friend in the ocean after decades (I think they said). Her right hand man betrayed her – I wouldn’t say she abandoned him – and he’s getting what they’ve established as a bad punishment: solitary. Yeah, these are both bleak. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@Jeremy](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/Jeremy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 11:01am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/48 "2020-07-29T11:01:42Z")
> [@MWollaeger](#): > > The writer was entirely aware of what he was doing. I’m going to disagree. This thing feels like amateur hour/hot mess. > [@MWollaeger](#): > > Yes, but none of this has to do with the goal per se. This is all World Building. I kind of looked at it as: kitchen sink theme. The movie is schizophrenic in my opinion. Not just in terms of theme. > [@MWollaeger](#): > > It’s not a toss-up. It’s Nile. I feel like they tried to do Infinity War here, and they wanted two MCs. It just wasn’t a robust enough movie. > [@MWollaeger](#): > > The put a lot of focus on Niles _because she is our subjective point of view._ I think they felt that they needed an easy way to spit out a lot of exposition. If that is enough to become an MC by itself… then I can’t disagree, but I don’t think it is. > [@MWollaeger](#): > > I think her problem revolves around her wanting to see her family, and at the end, she willingly hands over her phone. Slit throat, shot in the head, broken bones, shoots her own foot, takes bullets to rescue Andy, leaps off a building. Maybe the phone bookends her coming to accept her immortality/becoming a warrior. The counter arc is Andy’s move to mortal. > [@MWollaeger](#): > > She abandoned her friend in the ocean after decades (I think they said). What are decades to an immortal? But, I’d say the ending was intended to be Success/Good, but the closing image took a dump on it. So, in conclusion, a hot mess. ---
**Author:** ![MWollaeger](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/mwollaeger/32/82_2.png) [@MWollaeger](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/MWollaeger)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/49 "2020-07-29T16:57:01Z")
Your post has a lot of mixing of the subjective and objective roles of characters. It confuses storytelling and storyforming. If you want to learn about Dramatica, you can use this movie and walk away with several lessons. ---
**Author:** ![jassnip](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex010/user_avatar/discuss.dramatica.com/jassnip/32/452_2.png) [@jassnip](https://discuss.dramatica.com/u/jassnip)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 7:38am UTC](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976/51 "2020-08-02T07:38:05Z")
Been trying to work out the justifications for The Old Guard I think these two come pretty close. Immortals need to make the world a better place in order to live with loss–the ultimate price of immortality Unless Mortals want to enslave and experiment on them (the immortals) to unlock their genetic secrets in order to free humanity from disease, death, human suffering. [Previous page](https://discuss.dramatica.com/t/the-old-guard-making-the-plot/2976.md?page=2)