The Relationships between Concerns in Different Domains? Genre?

questions
#1

Hey, all! So, it seems to me that there are four general ‘flavours’ of stories, if you will allow for a moment, limited by the collection of concerns the through-lines can assume within the domains:

  • Top-left: The Past, Understanding, Conceptualizing (Developing a Plan), and Memories.
  • Top-right: Progress, Doing, Being (Playing a Role), and Preconscious (Impulsive Responses).
  • Bottom-left: The Future, Obtaining, Becoming (Changing One’s Nature), and Subconscious (Innermost Desires).
  • Bottom-right: The Present, Learning (Gathering Information), Conceiving, and Conscious (Contemplation).

My goal for the moment is to fully understand how the concerns in each collection are related and can work together to impact the atmosphere, feel, or scope of a story–the difference between stories like A Christmas Carol and The Godfather. To clarify, I don’t mean the difference between placing the MC Through-line in one domain or another, but rather the difference between a story with its concerns in the top-left of each domain vs. the bottom-left, for instance. For some, this question may seem obvious but I desire to delve into the details of the theory to see exactly what is happening and how I can manipulate it.

To put it more simply:
*How are concerns of The Past, Understanding, Conceptualizing, and Memories related?
*In general, what kinds of stories are possible with these concerns?
*How are these stories different from others with other concerns?

So, rather than reinventing the wheel, I’m wondering if someone out there that has already worked through a similar confusion would be kind enough to help me out–or, if not, point me towards the relevant literature, which I probably missed.

Thank you for your time, you’re a blessing. :smile:

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#2

Hey! Welcome!

The four ‘flavors’ of stories you’ve identified correspond to the quad of TKAD: thought, knowledge, ability and desire. This is the central quad that underpins the entirety of Dramatica theory and the concept of the story mind:

http://narrativefirst.com/archives/concepts/tkad

The groups you have listed above sort stories into problems of knowledge, problems of ability, problems of desire, and problems of thought, in that order.

The Past, Understanding, Conceptualizing, and Memories are all best seen as different lenses through which to view the central concern of knowledge, which Dramatica theory defines as follows: “Knowledge is something a character holds to be true. That does not necessarily mean it IS true but just that the character believes it is.”(from http://dramatica.com/dictionary/knowledge). So stories whose inequities originate from this quad will have to do with what characters know, what they think they know, which of their beliefs are true, which are false. One story that centers around issues of knowledge is The Sixth Sense. The entire story is driven by a goal of achieving an understanding of what is happening to Cole, and ends (spoiler alert) with Malcom coming to the understanding that he himself is a ghost!

You can find many more examples of films that all involve “Understanding” as their central concern here:

http://dramatica.com/analysis/examine/os-concern/understanding

For more on how the quad of TKAD works, you can check out this article:

For a much more in depth look at KTAD as a quad, here’s Melanie Anne Phillips on the subject:

http://storymind.com/mental_relativity/brain_2.htm

Anyway, hope that helps!

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#3

Beeeautiful answer! This is precisely what I was after. Thank you very much for the resources, I’m digging into them now.

#4

So weird, I could have sworn I’ve written an article about this, but can’t find it anywhere! I know I have slides for the Workshops I used to lead where I went through them and the percentages of the storyform but I guess I’ve never really published them yet. I’ll put it on the list for articles after the current series I’m on.

In the meantime, listen to @Audz, she’s basically knocking every answer out of the park lately :slight_smile:

I found an article that sort of refers to what you’re talking about:

Writers Who Write the Same Main Character

In short:

  • Upper Left: “Heavy” thrillers and suspense like all of Nolan’s films, Sixth Sense, and Usual Suspects (matches Mass)
  • Upper Right “Boy” films, Pixar, Star Wars (matches Ability)
  • Lower Left mid to late 20th century and rom/com, “Girl” films (matches Desire)
  • Lower Right foreign and early 21st century (matches Thought or Energy)

Found the slides. The breakdown same order is:

  • K = 23%
  • A = 23%
  • D = 37%
  • T = 12%

I suspect the numbers will shift in favor of the last as we move through 2040.

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#5

Oh, awesome! Coincidentally, I just stumbled upon this post you made, which covers my next natural question: whether the feel of the story is fixed according to the concerns.

I really appreciate the time you took to dig up those resources, and I very much look forward to seeing the article when you come to write it. (Your website is absolutely ace, by the way!)

However, being full of questions and doubts, I still wonder if I might have chosen my concerns haphazardly. (I may indeed be a bit confused…)

My story inequity is still kind of nebulous, but I believe it has something to do with sentimentality vs. survival or pragmatism–that is, “when does the maintenance of emotional attachments become disadvantageous to our survival or impede our ability to adapt” or, conversely, “when does our concern for survival impede our ability to maintain emotional attachments?”

This seems like a story with problems of desire, no? “I want to survive, but I couldn’t possibly give up fast food…guess I’ll just have to risk coronary heart disease.”

And yet it feels like change and inertia have a lot to do with what I’m trying to say…is this a problem with how I understand my inequity, or am I just misunderstanding the theory in some way?

#6

@lovenote, very cool thread. Welcome to Discuss Dramatica by the way!

When trying determining your Concerns (or any part of your storyform) it’s best not to worry so much about the main “story inequity” or “theme”, but rather to try and separate your story into the four throughlines, and then to figure out what is the SOURCE of conflict in each throughline. (The Domain, Concern, Issue, and Problem are all different zoom-levels of looking at the source of conflict in the throughline.)

Personally, I think you really connect the story’s “theme” or “central inequity” only once you really understand the full storyform and start to see connections in various places (especially Crucial Elements). Here are some good articles that, although only tangentially related to your question, I think cover best how to incorporate the type of “message” or thematic questions that you’re posing.

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#7

First, let me say that you guys are the best. You’ve given me such a warm welcome and invaluable help! I’ve been struggling with this theory for months independently; it’s so difficult to find answers when you don’t even understand the nature of your confusion~!

So, the reason I brought up theme is because, by saying a story has problems of [x], it sounds like the author is making an argument about [x]. Do you know what I mean?

Anyway, my original intention with this thread was to find a kind of absolute rule, as in, “if you intend [this] by [this], then assume this set of concerns.” If I’ve understood you correctly, @mlucas, theme is not something to take into consideration in the creation of a story form. That is, my choice of story form does not preclude me from making any particular thematic argument–it just narrows down what I can say about it. Yes?

I do have a story form, and I am in the process of illustrating it. But in one moment, I (re-)reflected on the choices that I did not take and began to wonder if I could choose a different story form, and if I did, what my story would then look and feel like. It just occurred to me somewhere along the line that I could ‘shade’ my through-lines in a slightly different way–for example, by making my MC’s problem not thought (over-thinking) but control (fear of vulnerability), or even hunch (suspicion) or disbelief (distrust) I could open myself up to all sorts of new indecision. I remember Ms. Phillips said (somewhere) that love is non-specific–you have to identify the kind of love–familial, destructive, etc.–in order to identify which story point can support what you intend.

So I guess I’m wondering what changing concerns would really do for me, and if it’s worth consideration. But, I’ve half a mind to just observe this new understanding as it passes by, and continue on with what I’ve built thus far.

#8

Hmm. This is a tricky subject. Theme is definitely tied up with the storyform – in fact you could probably say that in a way the storyform is the author’s message!

I just meant that if you’re trying to determine your storyform, it may or may not help to consider your theme. First off, you may find that as you develop your story and see it through the lens of Dramatica, that your theme may be a lot more complex than you initially thought. Also, the way you see your theme might relate directly to Dramatica story points and elements, but it might not.

Most people might get that the theme of Star Wars has to do with trusting in something, and that would certainly help you figure out the storyform. Same with The Matrix if you notice the problems with skepticism, not believing in one’s self or in Morpheus’s vision, and remember how Neo only comes into his power when “He is beginning to believe”. For these stories, the Problem/Solution is quite clearly tied into what most people might see as the theme.

But take The Princess Bride; most people would guess that theme to be something along the lines of the power of true love – “Death cannot stop true love.” Yet I don’t think that helps you figure out the storyform all that much, because that story’s argument is more complex. It’s not as simple as “have Faith in love”, it has more to do with embracing the potential of true love, and not getting stuck in your wrong-headed evaluations of things. Something like “always consider love’s great potential when evaluating your circumstances, and re-evaluate when necessary”.

With my own story I thought the theme was all to do with promises and oaths because they show up everywhere, so when I tried to storyform it I tried so hard to make Obligation the OS Issue or at least MC Issue, but that never worked. (I was new to Dramatica then.) Only when I jettisoned that did I get the right storyform, and it turned out surprisingly (since I didn’t select it) that Obligation was actually the RS Issue! And my theme is more complex than I thought; I think what I’m saying is that all these obligations are like chains and burdens (Crucial Element of Hinder).

As for your comments about changing concerns, I sort of operate on the principle that my subconscious has a particular storyform in mind for a story idea … and what you want to do is align your storyform to that. So I think you should only consider changing concerns if you suspect the storyform you have isn’t quite right, i.e. it doesn’t match your story idea.

Unless you started with the storyform and started building the story from scratch using that, like is done in Story Embroidery sessions?

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#9

By saying a story has problems of [x], the author makes an argument about the most appropriate approach towards solving problems of [x].

So the storyform doesn’t argue about insecurity or depression or war or famine, but rather the best approach towards solving problems of insecurity, depression, war, or famine.

Your quote leads to using Dramatica as a write-by-numbers tool where you take the various storypoints as elements of storytelling. What you want to do is use Dramatica to help you identify elements of storyforming. In short - you use Dramatica to identify the source of problems in your story so you can make an argument about how to best resolve them.

#10

Uhm…yes? I’m working from a character sketch and some preliminary world-building–just enough to indicate what could happen, but nothing definite–especially the whys and wherefores. This vaguery about the plotline is why I chose to focus on it; thinking, I suppose, that I’d be less strict about the direction Dramatica would lead me.

But, like you said, my subconscious seems to know more than I do. And so, the process feels like throwing darts at a target, blinded; at some point I just want to shed my handicaps and hit the mark.

That said! The idea that these ‘themes’ I’m noticing might come from the RS story really resonates with me; I’m not sure why, yet, but we’re getting there. Like a stubborn horse.

Understood, my good sir.

I was just wondering about the reason for the bottom-left’s association with rom-coms, the top-right with action, etc. If there’s a reason why the top-left isn’t known for its romances, it would be helpful to know as it might launch a monster of a wrench in my plans.

#11

No real reason except that’s where how many Authors classify conflict in different genres. Putting a rom-com in upper left would actually be unique and could possibly generate more interest based on its difference. Depends on if you want to play with type or against it.

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