Black Panther Analysis

analysis
#101

I think that’s a really great illustration of it. And his whole dream of being a great ruler like his father, but being unsure of himself. I can see all of that.

I’m still not entirely sold on Oppose/Support for the MC, but I also don’t have an alternative that would also work for the OS. I think Oppose in the OS is a really strong one, with all of the rival tribes competing and challenging one another (especially at the end, having to go to M’Baku’s tribe for support – or could it be help? – in the final battle).

But then this is where I get muddled, because I’m looking at the big ‘conflicts’ in the OS, the physical stuff – stealing the Vibranium; breaking Klaue out; the casino fight/street chase; the ritual battle between Killmonger and T’Challa; the battle at the end – and I’m trying to narrow it down to ‘what is the source of conflict in all of these moments?’ And I can’t see Oppose causing any of them, other than maybe the fight between Killmonger and T’Challa and the final battle. I could maybe see Hinder a little bit more, particularly with the casino chase (everyone trying to undermine the sale of the Vibranium, and then the whole chase is trying to throw people off the scent). But I don’t like Temptation for the MC, either. And that gives the IC the Drive of ‘Avoid’ which feels VERY wrong.

I’m almost certain that Control and Uncontrolled have to be in there somewhere. There are at least three different characters that talk about liberating and freeing the oppressed around the world. Whether that’s gonna be the IC drive (and Nakia/W’Kabi do step in on occasion), I’m not sure. But I’m convinced they’re in there somewhere.

EDIT: If you use all of the settings we agreed upon (Changed/Start/Be-er/Male/Action/Optionlock/Success/Good/Physics/Obtaining) and select Oppose as OS problem, the IC Drive is in Uncontrolled! We may be onto something here…

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#102

I’ll give a bit more thought to those action scenes. I think the ritual battle between Killmonger and T’Challa does have Oppose driving it at its root (Killmonger opposes how Wakanda has been ruled and kept its tech to itself, hence his usurpation attempt).

Totally agree on the Control / Uncontrolled thing…

I noticed that! Actually what was really interesting is that when I was trying different Domains (back when we were arguing Domains), I always got IC Drive of Uncontrolled. It happened with MC in Universe and even OS in Universe, so it felt like Dramatica was trying to tell me something… :slight_smile:

Even cooler, “being abandoned by someone” is a great gist for Uncontrolled! :boom: Talk about the IC Problem impacting the MC…

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#103

I can make an argument for most of them, but it feels a bit of a stretch for some. For example, the museum theft as a way of Killmonger protesting the way white people took those weapons from his ancestors is a leap I’d be okay with making, but I can’t think of a way to make it fit with breaking Klaue out of the prison. I’m slowly coming around to Oppose, but I’m not there yet.

What about Symptom/Response, @mlucas? Do you have thoughts on that? It says Help is the symptom and Hinder is the response. That seems weird.

Oh, here’s a question I wanted to ask before that I forgot about. I know you mentioned Obligation when you were arguing for the RS, and the Obligations they had to one another as cousins. Could you expand on that? Because that’s the one issue in the RS that I just can’t see at all. I can easily see the relationship being strained by their excuses, challenged by the lack of responsibility, the lack of commitment to family. I actually think I see Commitment v Responsibility the most. You have a familial relationship that’s really struggling to become a familial bond, because they’re both committed to pursuing wildly opposing duties that began with their fathers. And the conflict they share together seems to stem from that area more than anything else:

KILLMONGER: There’s 2 billion people around the world that looks like us, but life’s harder. Wakanda has the tools to liberate them all. […] Vibranium. Your weapons.
T’CHALLA: Our weapons will not be used to wage war on the world. It is not our way to be judge, jury and executioner to people that are not our own. […] I am not king of all people. I am king of Wakanda. And it is my responsibility to ensure that our people are safe.
– (Transcribed from notes scribbled in the dark, so may be a bit off)

Could you just expand a little on how you see Obligation in the RS?

#104

This is definitely tricky because the RS throughline was pretty small. But you said “lack of responsibility, lack of commitment to family” – couldn’t this also be at its a root a failure to uphold the obligations one has to one’s family?

I mean, the relationship is obligation, in a way. It’s defined by it. They don’t know each other, but they’re family, tied together by duty one has to family and by the family’s failure to uphold that duty to Erik.

Although “duty” can also fit Commitment and Responsibility, I feel like Obligation is more at the root here. It sort of exists first, just by virtue of them being born and existing in the same family. The responsibility and commitment (or lack) are definitely there, but the obligation comes first. Does that make sense?

And although what they argue about isn’t the RS, it sometimes points to it – and I think that argument you quoted (scribbled notes in dark, cool! :slight_smile: ) is about whether Wakanda has an obligation to help liberate the 2 billion oppressed. About whether all black people are Wakanda’s family too, and thus whether Wakanda is obligated to help them.

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#105

Keep in mind we don’t have to see the OS Problem in every OS scene. It just has to be “behind” the scene in some way. Like a motivating factor as to why the scene is even happening, why the characters are doing what they’re doing. We should also see evidence of it causing conflict and problems overtly sometimes (and I think we do in this movie) but I don’t think it has to be overt in every scene.

Well, Help as the Focus aka Symptom seems perfect to me. Everyone is focused on whether Wakanda should or should not be helping the rest of the world, offering up its technological advances, etc. Also, you’ll notice several instances (I mentioned some above) where people either find others’ help annoying or troublesome (“I’m going alone”), or they focus on needing help (getting the other tribe’s help to fight) or the need to help (healing CIA dude, needing to bring T’Challa out of his coma).

Hinder as the Direction aka Response is bit less obvious. But we do have:

  • in a lot of the action scenes, you see hindering and use of hinder, like when people get their entire car shot out from under them, or rely on their Vibranium armor that blocks bullets.
  • whenever T’Challa fights in the challenge, they have to hinder him by taking his Black Panther powers away (kind of a response to those powers giving him unfair help)
  • aren’t there several occasions where people accept having their hands tied and respond accordingly? Like “sorry I can’t do anything, I’m loyal to the throne” or “our hands are tied, he’s royalty so we have to let him challenge”.
  • this is mostly amusing but: "hey, our king needs the aid of the spirits (Focus: Help), how about let’s bury him in dirt / snow so he can barely breathe!" (Direction:Hinder) :slight_smile:
  • It seems like Erik’s whole plan – which is motivated by his opposition* to Wakanda not using its superiority to help – is based on hindering T’Challa so that he has no other options but to fight him. I mean, Erik could’ve just killed Klaue in the beginning and brought his head to Wakanda, without all the subterfuge. But his plan was to dangle Klaue in front of T’Challa’s nose and then make him look bad when he fails to capture Klaue. Thus weakening T’Challa’s position in Wakanda, hindering him so that his hands were further tied when Erik showed up.
  • The stuff with the train track at the end, T’Challa purposely hinders both of them by disabling their panther suits

* Also motivated by his drive to liberate oppressed black people … the OS and IC throughlines are woven pretty tight here, I think his plan shows both Oppose in the OS and Uncontrolled in the IC.

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#106

To be honest, I knew as soon as I wrote it that the RS is by far the least developed in the whole movie and probably the hardest one to discuss. It absolutely could be. I’m also really bad at illustrating the RS as a character (it’s a skill I just haven’t worked out yet), so I will defer to your judgement on that.

(And thank you! I had to transcribe my scribbled notes onto my computer immediately after leaving because it’s just a mess. But I tried! :grinning:)

I forget this all the time, and it’s such a basic thing. People don’t go to see structure. Duh-doy. I’m gonna paint it on my wall.

I think a better example here might be the part during the chase where Okoye throws her spear to flip Klaue’s car over and bring them to a stop – essentially hindering their getaway.

OH MY GOD. Oh, my God. Mike, that is a fantastic one. I’m applauding you through the screen. That’s a crystal clear example. Stripping the help of the BP powers to hinder the advantage. You might have just convinced me.

Alright, I’m pretty much sold on that storyform, I think. Everything else lines up really nice – Unique Abilities and Critical Flaws are great (MC Critical Flaw of Preconception feels totally right). The signposts are pretty perfect, too:

OS Signpost 1: Learning (Learning about the robbery; learning that Klaue is selling the Vibranium in Korea; learning about the new Black Panther suits; interrogating Klaue to find out his intentions)

OS Signpost 2: Doing (taking Ross back to Wakanda and healing him; killing Klaue[?]; the battle between Killmonger and T’Challa)

OS Signpost 3: Obtaining (Killmonger gets the throne; Nakia stealing the heart-shaped herb before it’s destroyed; T’Challa being rescued by M’Baku[?])

OS Signpost 4: Understanding (Understanding the Wakandan technology to win the fight; opening up Wakanda to the rest of the world)

And the MC’s first signpost is Memory (which is the whole dream world thing – meeting his Dad), and the third is Subconscious (which I THINK is when he confronts his Dad a second time). I really like those.

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#107

Wow! Those signposts are perfect! Great illustrations too @jhay!

I was also thinking about Signpost 1 of Learning as T’Challa teaching a lesson to the river tribe leader who challenged him, by sparing his life. This ends up important later!

The slide from Doing to Obtaining is really perfect as the fight between them, moving to losing the throne / Killmonger obtaining the throne.

And your “opening up Wakanda to the rest of the world” as Signpost 4 Understanding is really great. They come to understand that Killmonger wasn’t entirely wrong, and show everyone that they misunderstood Wakanda’s prominence (that scene at the UN during the credits really shows this).

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#108

That’s a good illustration for Signpost 1! Definitely a learning moment. I’m really happy with the signposts. I can’t remember a lot about the IC/RS or where they fit in with the signposts right now, but I’m sure they’re good too. The only thing I remember is that ‘I’m trying to fight our enemies at their own game!’ ‘You have become them!’ exchange in the final act of the RS, which lines up with Becoming. Though it’s a bit on the nose, and as I said, I haven’t fully grasped the ‘RS as an individual character’ skill yet so not sure how I’d even begin to illustrate that.

I’m pretty happy with this. All the points I wanted are in there somewhere. Now we just have to wait and see if Jim agrees or if we’re going to be a footnote in the ‘Letters to Sebastien’ book. :grin:

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#109

Haha! Yeah totally.

The one thing I was wondering about was the RS Solution of Logic. I can definitely see Feeling as the RS Problem – a lot of emotion driving their interactions and how they feel about each other (anger, guilt, etc.). An angry relationship.

But Logic, I’m not sure where that comes in. Is there some simple logic or rationale for their relationship that they come to accept? I can’t remember what they talked about in that sunset scene overlooking Wakanda City. Did they ask why, like how did we end up like this? (searching for causes and effects is Logic, too…) Or were they trying to make sense of things?

Or what about with Nakia, the potential hand-off IC … didn’t he do something like give her a logical reason to stay with him?

Is it maybe the same thing with Nakia and Killmonger (even though he’s dead) … that their relationship resolves through T’Challa finding a sensible, reasonable (thus eminently logical) way for Wakanda to share its advantages with the world?

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#110

I can’t remember exactly what they talk about, but it’s a much more rational conversation than they had before. They don’t shout, they don’t argue. They admire the sunset and then Killmonger dies.

For Nakia, I can’t remember if he asks her to stay in Wakanda, or if he just asks her to stick around with him, but he definitely tells her that he’s going to take her advice and use the technology to help the world. So there might be a logical reason to stick around there?

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#111

Hey, maybe that’s it! … The only rational way for their relationship to resolve its conflict is to let Killmonger die. There’s kind of a cold logic to that (and Killmonger does talk about why it needs to be that way, he even walks through it step by step), but it does resolve things for them.

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#112

I’m trying to remember exactly what that final conversation was about because it’s definitely a relationship that resolves. But all I can remember is the thing about how beautiful the sunsets are, so I think you’re probably right. The death of the ‘emotional one’ is what’s needed to bring about a more ‘rational’ relationship.

#113

There was a part where Killmonger talked about why he couldn’t allow himself to be healed and face his crimes – if he did that he’d end up imprisoned, something like that. I think it was an IC Resolve moment (he stays with Uncontrolled until the end) but there was some Logic to it as well.

Hey, did we ever describe the Story Goal? Something like “stopping Killmonger from giving away dangerous Wakandan weapons” might work. (Like I said, I think Killmonger is the Antagonist because I don’t see a First Driver than creates an inequity where giving away the weapons would actually address the inequity. It definitely seems to be the other way around.)

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#114

THAT’S IT! T’Challa offers to help Killmonger and heal him with their technology, but Killmonger says something about refusing to be chained, and dying with honour and integrity like his ancestors. It sort of doubles as an IC Resolve and an RS Solution.

I agree. The first driver (I think) is stealing the vibranium from the museum to profit, and the scene immediately following (I think) is the Wakandans debating how they’re going to chase them down and stop it. The Wakandans are 100% positioned as the people whose side we’re supposed to be on, so it definitely feels like Killmonger is the Antagonist, with Klaue probably as Contagonist.

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#115

Wow I am soooooo sorry that it took me so long to see this movie and join the conversation. (Just saw it this afternoon).

So I didn’t read any of this thread until now (just had to skim a bit as it’s long).

Was there any consensus in the end? If so, please disregard below … (and sorry to restart any debates if the rest of this has all been settled …)

For what it’s worth, my first-take impression of the movie (before looking at this thread at all) was:

  1. Absolutely OS in Physics.

  2. MC in Universe. He’s just become king. Isn’t that at the source of his problems? I just don’t see him in Mind in the same way that a character like Jason Bourne is in Mind (with all of his memory problems). Also, isn’t Killmonger a quintessential Fixed Attitude character?

  3. For the OS Problem/Solution (or Focus/Direction?) Self-Aware vs. Aware screamed out at me. Isn’t Wakanda’s whole problem that it’s all focused internally? And the solution is that they need to turn outside themselves?

  4. That arrangement puts T’challa’s Issue in Destiny – which seems to fit, doesn’t it? He’s destined to become king.

  5. The OS issue would be Senses. As in, Wakanda is hidden from the world…

Anyway. Just my first impressions.

EDIT: I see that @mlucas and @jhay you were zeroing in on a storyform which is quite different from what I had …

#116

Its been asserted that superhero movies have OS in Physics, but I think I’ve found a counter-example.

IF we can accept Sucker Punch as a superhero movie, I believe its OS is in Situation.

I suspect (this is a wild assed guess) that the more bitter a superhero movie is (movies such as Hancock, Sucker Punch, Logan, Spawn, etc.), the more likely it is for the OS to be internal.

#117

I’m still working on my understanding, but I’m coming around to @jhull’s contention that OS stories in Universe are rare (and in Mind rarer still), so without compelling evidence to the contrary, I start with the assumption that the OS is either in Physics or Psychology.

Unfortunately I haven’t seen the examples you mention, but Jim’ site has Logan with an OS in Physics (Story Goal: “Transporting a Mutant Child to Eden”), so I don’t think “darkness” is really the issue.

Superhero movies would almost always be in Physics, because that’s the whole point. Exceptions like The Incredibles (OS Psychology) make sense because while its kind of a superhero movie, that movie is really a family/psychological drama – something that in a way shares more thematically and feeling-wise with Beauty and the Beast than with Black Panther.

I almost feel like at the Domain level, it’s easiest just to ask “what is this movie really about?” but without overthinking it too much.

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#118

I think that’s what causes the real problem with making “superhero” a genre or making sweeping statements about it.
There’s just far too much diversity in what “superhero” fiction is. It can be a family drama (such as Fantastic Four) or it can be a psychological exploration (such as V for Vendetta or Hancock), it can be situational (like Stikeforce: Morituri or Logan) or action (like the Watchmen or the X-Men movies). While fighting and action occur, that can be business / scene dressing rather than integral to the story form.

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#119

Yeah, I think we were pretty set on that storyform, and managed to find illustrations for most of the important story points. Obtaining really did seem right for this…

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#120

Welcome to the party! I saw it for the third time about a week ago (preceding Infinity War, which – without spoilers – might just break this board at the seams if an analysis is attempted…),

[quote=“Lakis, post:115, topic:1477”]
Was there any consensus in the end? If so, please disregard below … (and sorry to restart any debates if the rest of this has all been settled …) [/quote]

The storyform we agreed on was: Changed; start; be-er; linear; action; optionlock; success; good; physics; obtaining; attitude; oppose.

[quote=“Lakis, post:115, topic:1477”]
MC in Universe. He’s just become king. Isn’t that at the source of his problems? I just don’t see him in Mind in the same way that a character like Jason Bourne is in Mind (with all of his memory problems). Also, isn’t Killmonger a quintessential Fixed Attitude character?[/quote]

This was the big sticking point. I also believed that this was how it went at first. But Killmonger’s attitude is more ‘big picture’ – everyone has an attitude about what should be done with the vibranium: do we keep it, do we give it to the oppressed, or do we take it and sell it on the black market?

Killmonger’s influence stems from his position in the universe – he’s an abandoned Wakandan of royal blood. Look at the scene before the council (just after he drags Klaue’s body in): they don’t really listen to his position on things, don’t take him seriously. It’s only when he announces himself as the son of N’Jobu that suddenly everyone takes notice, and starts listening to him. And, similarly, it’s not so much his attitude that influences T’Challa as much as the fact that they’re related.

[quote=“Lakis, post:115, topic:1477”]
For the OS Problem/Solution (or Focus/Direction?) Self-Aware vs. Aware screamed out at me. Isn’t Wakanda’s whole problem that it’s all focused internally? And the solution is that they need to turn outside themselves? [/quote]

That’s A problem, but I’m not sure it’s THE problem. Here’s a better question: could you define the goal as one of ‘Understanding’?

[quote=“Lakis, post:115, topic:1477”]
That arrangement puts T’challa’s Issue in Destiny – which seems to fit, doesn’t it? He’s destined to become king.[/quote]

But is that causing conflict for him? He’s not fighting his destiny, really. It seems, for him, to be more of an issue of these unrealistic expectations that are placed upon him (of his own making): that he can’t live up to his father (who he’s, again, created a false image of), that he can’t be a good king, can’t live without his father.

It is, but that’s not a problem in itself. The fact that the world cannot SEE Wakanda isn’t really a problem. It’s the way things have always been. The problems are coming from people’s opposition to the idea of Wakanda helping those around the world (for good or bad). That’s why you get M’Baku’s tribe challenging for the throne, and Killmonger trying to take over, etc. I can’t think of an example of senses other than the one you described.

I’d be open to hearing an argument, though, if you have one.

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