Conflict - Or How is this a problem?

writing
#9

Oh yes, you should defo get this into your blog @Audz !

I was reading through the story creation exercise in the forum that took place in 2014 and this question of what is Problem came up there too. Though no one was explicit in defining what Problem is (Jess was asking then too), I gleaned that Problem is more a subconscious aspect of the character…the underlying reason why he or she does something that is creating their actions. But because there wasn’t an explicit explanation of the term in the way Dramatica uses it, I wasn’t confident about what I had gleaned.

But, you’re explanation here explicitly says it! Thank you!

#10

The follow on question from Problem is what is the Problem’s resolution in Dramatica terms?

Is it Solution or Response or Inhibitor?

I’m wondering now how Problem relates to the other story points and how to match it’s resolution to the appropriate story point.

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#11

Here you go!: [How To Use Dramatica the Right Way] (https://narrativefirst.com/articles/how-to-use-dramatica-the-right-way-part-two)

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#12

Awesome! Thanks Jim!

#13

It looks like you’ve found a way that works for you, yes! Actually, that definition seems really useful. At first I was thinking it has too many “ingredients”, but they’re all great reminders, especially once you get down to the scene level, like a scene outline, or actual writing.

I’m glad you wrote this, because I was guessing that was true for you. It’s really important to figure out what works for you and what doesn’t.

Now, I do want to comment on Jim’s “how is this a problem?” stuff because I think it’s actually pretty simple. But I’ll do that in another post because, again, it probably won’t be helpful for you @jassnip – likely too vague/cerebral.

#14

I drafted this post earlier today, and now that Jim’s posted the link to his awesome article, it seems kind of superfluous. But I’ll post it anyway, as another way of wording things, and another example of making something a problem.

I believe the definition of conflict used in Dramatica circles is sort of simpler than what’s mentioned in the initial post. It’s really just: character + desire + (thing that cannot coexist with desire). At least that’s how I understand it. I’m not sure if “desire” is always the right word – you might have some cases where the character isn’t aware of it – but it should usually serve.

When Jim flexes his biceps :muscle: tattooed with “how is this a problem?” he’s making sure that there actually is a problem, that we’re not just assuming one because the storytelling seems problematic.

Like if you say, “my MC hates his parents”. Great. How is that a problem? Maybe he enjoys hating his parents.

“Well, they really messed things up with how they handled his sister’s illness, and when she died everything went bad.” Okay, but now you’re just describing why he hates his parents. Great stuff, but it doesn’t make it a problem.

To make X a problem you need to look for the “other thing”, Y, that cannot co-exist with X.

“Hmm. Okay, my MC hates his parents, doesn’t want anything to do with them. But he also needs their help to pay for his college tuition, so now he has to show up for Sunday dinner and beg for money…” Perfect! X is he doesn’t want anything to do with his parents, and Y is that he has to visit them and keep them in his life because he needs their financial help. That’s a problem.

Character + desire + (thing that cannot co-exist with desire)

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Thinking of dramatica elements as a source of drive as opposed to source of conflict, inequity, and problems
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#15

Sometimes I think there must be some Dramatica theory explanation of what a problem is that’s difficult and just out of reach. Then sometimes I think we’re all making it more complicated than it has to be and making something problematic is really just about tying an element to a story event…something to make the narrative worth watching or reading so it’s not just about some guy wishing people knew how awesome of a spy he could be for 90 minutes…or pages.

#16

Not superfluous, not even a little. The additional/different verbiage helps immensely. Don’t ever stop putting your understanding forth, my friend.

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#17

Love this description of conflict, Mike. It’s very clear, mathematical and rather visual (to me) for some reason. Thanks.

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#18

Thank you, @jhull.

Thinking on this…that desire which, as you point out, people aren’t always aware of could also probably be described as want/goal/need. Need being the most likely candidate for an unknown.

Now I want to play with your rubric and see if I get similar kinds of conflict

Character A desires a drink of water but (thing that can’t exist with it) the water seller (Character B) demands payment up front and Character A doesn’t have enough credits…
Character A desires a drink of water, but (thing that can’t exist with it) brown sludge comes out of the tap, (oh this is fun, this is McKee’s “gap in expectations”)
Character A desires a drink of water but (thing that can’t exist with it) there is only enough for one and her daughter needs it too
Character A desires a drink of water but (thing that can’t exist with it) accepting it from Character B puts Character A at a disadvantage (I’m thinking of GoT where the disciples of the High Sparrow/Septon starve and withhold water from Cersei).

Yes, I like this as an additional tool in my arsenal. Thank you for phrasing it just right.

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#19

Thanks for that!

Jfhfjk

#20

Came upon this method of generating conflict described by Jim on Narrative First. It has similarities and differences to what’s been discussed above.

What a rich conversation here re: conflict. So many ways to approach it.

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#21

Scouring the forum, I picked up this clue from @chuntley:

http://discuss.dramatica.com/t/what-is-the-connection-between-m-i-problem-and-outcome/485/8?u=whitepaws

But what is it for change characters? Is the Problem the same or different?

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#22

I wish it were just out of reach, @Gregolas then at least we’d have a fighting chance, lol!

I have looked far and wide for a basic definition of Problem in the materials and it doesn’t exist. It also doesn’t exist in the QnA of this website. The closest a basic definition that exists is in the Dramatica pdf where it says:
P.116

‘Finally, we have arrived at the most basic and precise level of understanding in regard to a story’s problem: the Element level. It is here that the source of difficulties experienced in each throughline can be found. The Overall Story Problem is something that will affect all of the characters and all that they do.”

And then it goes on to describe how Problem (whatever that is!) is seen in each of the throughlines.

Anyway, the best understanding I’ve gleaned is from Huntley’s quote (above) about it being a motivation of some sort.

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#23

For Change characters, the Problem is the source of conflict, thought it’s usually hidden from them until they’ve torn down the blinders that hide it from them. The Symptom appears to be their problem, and they react with their Response, until they are able to see the difference between the symptom and problem and realize that only the Solution may resolve their troubles.

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#24

How does this differ in a Steadfast character, Chris?

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#25

To quote myself from above:

In Steadfast characters, the ‘Problem’ is better understood as the source of the characters’ motivations than as the source of the characters’ conflicts. (NOTE: Like all things Dramatica, this is a generalization and exceptions are expected.)

For Steadfast characters, the Symptom is treated as the problem and the Response as the solution for that ‘problem’.

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#26

@chuntley , So what’s the secret to showing how a Problem (or Symptom) is problematic within a story? To use Jims example from the article linked above, it’s not good enough to say that a character is driven to prove that he can be a good spy. It’s only good enough once we see how his attempts to prove himself cause his wife to toss his stuff out on the lawn.

Is it a problem then because of conflicting truths (I can prove that I can be a great spy…unless my wife misunderstands and throws all my stuff on the lawn), is it something about motivations or goals (I can’t spy right now because I have to gather all my spy equipment and smiley face undies off the lawn), or is there something else?

I’ve mostly just thought of something as being problematic when it is illustrated within the story as an imbalance regarding the element in question, something that shows why following a given element doesn’t immediately lead to success. So that could apply to Jims spy example in that the character can’t prove he can be a good spy A. Because he’s too busy cleaning the yard to try again, B. Until he can get his wife to stop being suspicious about what he’s doing, C. Because good spies don’t arouse suspicion in their spouses D. Because a good spy isn’t held back by family squabbles, etc.
Edit: come to think of it, that sounds a lot like @mlucas’ description of:

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#27

It must cause conflict. That is why it is a “problem.”

Always remember that there is no “Problem” story point in Dramatica, per se. HOWEVER, there is an OS Problem, an MC Problem, an IC Problem, and a RS (or SS) Problem.

Context is EVERYTHING.

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#28

Okay, so yes, saying that a Dramatica element is problematic because it creates conflict seems like it should be much easier than I think many of us have made it.