Dramatica & Interactive Fiction, Can it be done?

Let me drop a little link where Melanie Anne Phillips talks about Dramatica and Video Games

I’d like to explain what I tried to do when I was working on my Twine+Dramatica project (which would use the concepts described by Evan Hill). It was set in the far-distant future. You play a psychology student who is tasked to go inside the copies of template patients’ minds (story minds taken literally), having to find a way to solve the inequity within. Failing to do so (Game Overs) would simply eject the student, making them start over (in-universe; the player could just go to a save state). The reason for this second level player character is so that we have an in-universe explanation why the pc can’t simply use the solution to solve the problem; the patient is simply blind to it, and sees the symptom as the actual problem; the patient also has specific concerns/issues/problems to deal with, that the student would have to work within or around.

One mind only has one storyform, but within this mind, the player can make choices determining the degree of Success/Good (as all minds would have at least a Good judgment, if not Success as well; we’re trying to help patients here; most are probably Change characters, too), as well as figuring out where the player stands on the variation-level, on the issues of the storyform. Should we focus more on Skill or Experience, etc. Hopefully those choices (whether they’re on the nose or more subtle) would be good vs good (or evil vs evil) choices, instead of good vs evil. I’m sure in Text Parsers and such, these choices could be a lot more subtle.

The player would have to solve a certain number of story minds to “beat” the game, not necessarily in any particular order, and they could try to redo a mind to improve their solution.

So, this is an extremely simplistic way of using Dramatica in an interactive way. There’s no real form-shifting going on, instead you just choose between different forms. And, yes, this idea is heavily inspired by the likes of Psychonauts and Assassin’s Creed.

I hope this made sense at all. It’s been a while since I’ve worked on this and I’m sure you’ll find things that wouldn’t really work. Still, back then it seemed like a good idea.

I gotta say that I don’t really like that. I know this is a bit off-topic, but I do think that story in games has its time and place, and shouldn’t be a requirement for the game to be considered good (or better).

This is my favorite thread of all time. Thank you!!!

Dear @bobRaskoph,

your project seem very intriguing. I have some difficulty to imagine it in action, but I guess is one of those things that you need to see and play to fully understand.

After having given a better look at “Slayers Inc.” and a quick look at its code, it came to my mind of a software tool that I had bought in the past—but when my previous PC crashed I forgot to reinstall it.

Its called Divine Gamebook Creator, and its price is very reasonable. It allows to create interactive books with variables and conditions, without requiring coding in a strict sense. So it might come handy for your project:

http://www.divinegames.it/#book-index

In the meantime I’ve had a nice email exchange with Melanie on the issue, and she kindly provided me with some good insight on the possibilities to use Dramatica for IF. She confirmed that player and MC need not be one and the same, and that having the MC out of the picture—or even as a Character which comes and goes—might make things smoother.

Her reply was rather lengthy and rich, and I’ll need some time to fully get a grip on all that—and realize I have to re-read her Mental Relativity paper.

I am rather determined to take some time and get into the issue, and then draft a sketch of an IF work which takes advantage of Dramatica concepts. My idea is to present it to one of the various IF yearly contents around the world, and attach to it a paper describing how it was designed (something not unusual in a genre like IF, which is always looking for new roads of expression). There is always a great interest for new ideas and approaches in the genre, so even if I were to partly fail in my intent, someone else might be prompted to explore this potential. And luckily there are in the IF community some well prepared academics who have studied non-linear fiction, its theory and its history. So I might drop a mail or two over there too.

In the meantime I’ve recalled some passages I’ve read from Twisty Little Passages, and some IF gameplays in which the player is shifted from one character to another in order to finish the game—and each time he shifts, in order to progress he has now to take advantage of what he’s learned while being the other character. So the initial problems I envisaged are now taking a different shape because I realize that perspective changes would allow to handle different storyforms (after all, one character’s storyform needs not be the same of anothers, even though all them have an overlapping role in the others’ storymind).

Which only confirms that Dramatica is a representation of what goes on in the real world too, where each of us is living a private narrative mental journey “collectively”.

Also, Melanie pointed out that story progression doesn’t have to be an impediment to using Dramatica, after all the game can offer exploration of the various story points through other means, or not taking into account plot progression at all, and players are still able to reconstruct mentally the storymind they’ve traversed—ie: after the game is finished, they will relive mentally its meaningful moments, reordering them in a meaningful sequence even if they were not explored exactly in that order.

I guess that the higher the dynamics of the storytelling medium employed, the less can be nailed into fixed positions—but people are used, after all, to quickly rearrange experience to make it conform to their bias (otherwise bias would not be a strong factor in the storymind).

But most of all, I realize I need to get some ideas on paper and start coding them and do some world-building, because only by playing it I can test the “feel” of its story exploration. Maybe its easier done than said!

Hi @jhull !

Tristano

I have a question for you @jhull, do you know if in DSE’s Story Engine is possible to lock Singpost choices, like in Dramatica Pro 4 was possible to lock any storypoint? Therefore assign to some specific Signposts in any Throughline a give Type and have them locked while trying other possible storyforms?

I haven’t seen DSE and I dont’ have a Mac. I’m waiting for the Win version of DSE to be released and buy it.

Thanks!

Tristano

[quote=“Tristano, post:10, topic:458”]
your project seem very intriguing. I have some difficulty to imagine it in action, but I guess is one of those things that you need to see and play to fully understand.[/quote]
Guess my explanation wasn’t good enough. I’m not really sure how I could explain it better without, you know, actually making it, but I can’t really afford to spend much time on any personal projects for a long while.

I’ve skimmed the site, and it doesn’t seem to offer anything that I couldn’t do with Twine or program myself. My reason for using Twine instead of Inform (or Quest or anything like that) isn’t because I have no programing knowledge (I do, I study computer science), but rather because Text Parsers tend to be a lot more unpredictable in my experience.

Maybe I’ve spend to much time on the Internet, or I’ve become just that cynical, but I have to put serious mental effort into reading this in a non-sarcastic way. I think it’s the three exclamation points and the hyperbole that throw me off.

I’m pretty sure I wrote about this back on the G+ board, or maybe it was another we floated around on before settling here, but there were a few interactive movies made in the late 1990’s that I had owned at one point. One of them, Tender Loving Care, had John Hurt playing a psychiatrist who briefly appeared from time to time (perhaps at act breaks or maybe even the equivalent of signposts) to ask the viewer a series of questions that would shape the outcome of the story.

The idea is that the movie’s pre-determined plot would play out in a manner that mirrored the viewer’s own psychological make-up and, if I remember correctly, it would even give something of a profile at its conclusion. It was, in a sense, like playing a dramatic video game on your DVD player and the idea that the outcome was dependent on the choices you were making along the way always fascinated me (though I can’t recall how many possible endings there were).

A quick glance searching the internet seems to show the movie itself has found new life with app makers as an option for the iPhone/ipad, etc. It would be interesting to track down a copy and look at it through Dramatica.

It seems the new App is a remake taking advantage of iPad/iPhone features like touch screen, and possible other things. How was the original DVD interactivity, via the DVD Player remote control? Did it present you with a list of choices to which a certain button would correspond?
Again Mac-world … so I’m cut off.
It shouldn’t be difficult to get old of the original DVD, via some online second hand resellers.
Thinking of terms of DVD size, it must have amounted to a full story with different paths and ending, some maybe overlapping (or “cross-roading”). Definitely analyzing it in all its paths in Dramatica terms could provide some insight.

Yes, it was used via the remote. For example, it might show you a picture that had nothing to do with the story, but give you a selection of five or so things that best described how you felt about it or what you thought was happening in the photo while other questions would be more pertinent to the narrative. You would simply use your remote to arrow up or down for your selection. I wouldn’t doubt it if it’s available on the internet in some form as there are clips all over youtube involving it.

I assure you it’s 100% sincere. I think the development of Dramatica in interactive fiction/gaming is extremely exciting and love seeing work being done on it.

Also, I played a lot of Zork when I was a kid and solved Deadline so…yeah. I’m a fan.

I was listening to episode 321 of podcast On the Page with guest Susan O’Connor where she discusses writing for video games. Of course, I thought of Dramatica and how it could all work together. O’Connor suggested a solution. this episode is from November 1, 2013. I think it’s worth listening to. She uses Breaking Bad as an example (i.e. bringing it over to a video game) The thing that makes the show compelling is watching Walter White problem solve. His stakes and his loved ones are all a part of his urgency to solve his problems but she suggests that it is a hard sell for the player to care as much as Walter White about all his problems/loved ones. I think what she’s saying is making the POV character as the Protagonist makes it difficult to make choices and still have an immersive experience and you don’t want to operate in a morally empty universe because you would lose what makes Breaking Bad Breaking Bad. So if you make the POV immersive in the world as a passenger character or supporting driver character. You could be Tuco or Hank the cop or someone from Mexico comes up to try to be the new Heisenberg.
At least this way you can have the overall story more complete.

I had an idea that may have been similar to yours, @bobRaskoph, but instead it was a Fantasy Island show called Dramatica Therapy.
People would come to the Dramatica Therapy studio with issues. They see symptoms as problems and they have critical flaws and unique abilities. Mr. Roarke would plug them into the Total Recall patented Memory machine and while his dialogue is filled with exposition explaining why the guest star is there that week he inputs the overall story, the relationship story, the influence/obstacle character and main characters issues, critical flaws, unique abilities and let the guest star of the week try to figure out his issues in the context of the Overall story conflict. etc.

Of course that would be all scripted but why couldn’t in the near future people put themselves in a Dramatica Therapy virtual reality with gists type choices and plug in your own personal inequities. Then you would work out your issues in a totally new context that you may not be so blind to as you would be because of your emotional closeness to the real issue.

Thanks for the podcast @SPotter, I’ve found it on their website:

I also took a chance and Googled to see if there are any books on the subject, and I’ve found two titles that deal with video game writing/narrative:

  • The Ultimate Guide to Video Game Writing and Design (by F.Dille & J.Z.Platten)
  • Professional Techniques for Video Game Writing (by Wendy Despain)

not having read either of them I have no idea how inherent and helpful they might be, but peeking at their TOCs they seem to contain useful guidelines and considerations.

I find it very interesting that, so far, most replies suggest having the player in a non-MC role. I also notice that somehow this discussion brings up issues relating to Mental Relativity—especially your project idea, with the Dramatica Therapy studio. IF work seems to require a step back from usual Dramatica use, and rethinking the issue over in terms of Mental Relativity processes, so as not to loose sight of perspective in the process.

I was thinking that for my IF experiment, I could take a novel which I like and know well, analyze it in Dramatica terms and then think how I could turn it into an IF game and preserve its storyform. And after that, think of how I could add forkings to it, allowing different endings—or other approaches which would allow fictional interactivity without loosing dramatic potential.

It’s not unusual in the IF world to take a famous novel or movie and make a text-adventure of it—usually it’s considered a tribute to the novel. In my case, having a solid reference to start to work on, would allow me to avoid many pitfalls that I’d otherwise have to face if writing from scratch (and juggling with story creation, alignment to Dramatica, plus interactivity). Also, the original novel/movie would function as a “benchmark” to measure success and failure of my project—both in its making as well as after its completion.

Dramatica analysis would allow me to grasp where the story dramatic potentials are, and ensure that they don’t get lost in medium-translation. From there I could test various IF patterns, and see how far I can stretch narrative deviations from the original.

I wouldn’t say put the player character(PC) in a non-MC role but do not put the PC in a Protagonist role. The Protagonist can move the Overall Story forward and it’s Success or Failure can be decided ahead of the time but your PC/MC’s Judgement of Good or Bad will be open ended.

On a similar note:
I have been getting into Dungeons & Dragons this past year (again after 30 years) and here you are dealing with a group dynamic. I guess the Dramatica analysis will have to be done after a campaign has ended. My guess that since we are dealing with several Player Characters who come up against given circumstances and can make infinite choices but all have a shared goal (usually) that a story form will happen naturally. All the PCs think of themselves as the MC in their story but usually one of the group stands out as the Protagonist or a Non-Player Character(NPC) takes that role. Because we are dealing with real human beings the PCs are complex but you get Sidekicks and Guardians and another is the Emotion character and another is the Reason character, etc. A NPC is almost always the Antagonist.

I would say most Players in D&D don’t turn out to be change characters but wouldn’t it be cool if the Dungeon Master/Game Master was so good at storytelling and the Players were so good at Role Playing that the characters actually had an epiphany and overcame personal issues? In the new 5th Edition of D&D they have actually set this up now for this to happen. You are encouraged to create characters with critical flaws and unique abilities and personal issues whether they be internal or external issues.

I’ve looked at the link you’ve provided @SPotter. I don’t know much about D&D, but I know it exists as a game to play amongsts friends, face to face, as well as in digital online versions. I must admit that I’ve never quite came to grips with massive multiplayer immersion worlds. I’ve taken interested, as of lately, in MUDs and MOOs, and experimented with Evennia (a FOSS Python framework for creating MUDs and MOOs), but maybe due to my Interactive Fiction experience I have a bias toward understanding the mechanics of multiplayer persistent worlds—and I’ve failed badly to understand how they are to be designed.

From D&D, I’ve started thinking therefore of multiplayer virtual worlds, and I remembered a passage from Richard A. Bartle’s Designing Virtual Worlds (considered by many as «the Bible» of multiplayer virtual world games), so I went and fetched it:

Players consume content quicker than it can be produced. To prevent a virtual world from becoming “played out,” therefore, some mechanism for reintroducing content must be installed——the reset strategy of the virtual world. There are two basic approaches: sudden and rolling.
This is not necessarily true of the virtual worlds of the future, in which content may arise from player actions rather than being introduced by designers, but it’s true for virtual worlds of the present.
[Designing Virtual Worlds, “Reset Strategy”]

He then goes on to describe different approaches to how a virtual world can be driven toward is final stages and then “resurrected”. I think this does tie in to the Grand Argument Story—after all, if we take the virtual world and its game experience as a narrative that unfolds through time (no matter which roles are served by the players), at the end of its narrative cycle, all players should be able to look back and appreciate the storypoints and dramatics they’ve experienced. So, a virtual world could have a set of rules by which to determine if the players are triggering the right dramatic points that would then shift the narrative to a next stage—and the virtual world would then take care of updating all its players population of the changes taking places. New stage, new pressures, new immediate apparent problems, and so on.

Any virtual world could emphasize things like forewarning, dividends, costs, ecc., in a manner of ways (NPCs gossiping in taverns, TVs, radios, newspapers, ecc.)

(note: the author speaks mainly of digital worlds, but not only! he points out over and over the link between table top games and video games of this genre).

As mentioned, I fail to grasp the multiplayer medium (especially NPCs, or “mobiles” as they are often called in teh genre), but I guess that there are backend tricks to ensure each player is granted basic appreaciations—even if by “enforcing” them on him, specifically.

In text-adventures IF the problem should be easier because they are single player, turn based, and take no account of real-time. A single player can easily be handled, and appreciations can be enforced on him—“cut scenes” in which the player is suspended from his role of controlling his subjective character, and presented with an objective outside view of the story, either out of character or from another character’s POV.

At the end, when we watch a movie or read a book, we as spectators/readers are able to jump in and out of the MC, the subjective and the objective view, and still appreciate his throughline even though we are participant to Overall Story events which are not part of the MC knowledge. The fact that the player might be controlling the MC actions as is in-game character doesn’t compromise this knowledge: in IF games is not enough to know something as a player, your character can’t carry out actions unless he has the prerequisite knowledge—so, for example, when you replay an adventure, and you already know the name of a given NPC, you might still not interact with him until your character discovers (ie: “earns” through interactions) the name/identity of that NPC.

Often IF puzzles are about discovering how to get to a specific situation, even if you already know the solution—you must still gather the means. And I think this could be a general consideration for any single player video game.

The IF game designer knows that he has to constrain player choices to make them consistent with the world he is building, and ultimately you deliver an illusion of choices, not a truly openworld in which all choices will be accepted—more like the conjurer’s freedom of choice when he asks you to “chose” a card. Some of these choices would be specifically tied to a different story-path, ultimately moving the player/character through different storyforms, at specific nodal points of the story.

Labeling some actions as “good”, “evil”, or other relevant qualifications, could allow the designer to measure and qualify the overall tendency of the player during a whole stage of play, and ultimately decide which storyform to employ for (e.g.) the second part of the game. This approach would avoid a binary situation in which the player has to chose at once his course of story, and in my opinion it would allow a subtler, more spread-in-time measurement of the player mental approach to the game.

I guess that different video game genres would have to approach it from different angles, so I can only really speak for IF since I have some experience in it. But the more I think about it the more I am convinced that, as long as the finished game presents the player with a complete Grand Arg.Story, interactivity can be introduced in different ways, at different levels, and the designer would only have to ensure that all possible narrative paths are consistent in themselves. Possibly, some Dramatica appreciations might be presented to the player in non-orthodox ways (ie: non-linear in time, or order), but counterbalancing tricks can be employed to make sure the player is reminded of their importance (or existence) at key points of the adventure—NPCs dialogues, a radio broadcast, a newspaper or TV in a room, ecc.

Inform7 is a good tool for experiment all these, because it allows to create such criteria in an almost natural language. So part of the code would (more or less, but quite closely) look like:

Hitting an unarmed person is an evil action.
Saving somebody and feeding somebody are good actions.
When Act 2 begins:
    If the number of player's good actions is greater than the number of player's evil actions:
[...]

which of course looks much more familiar to us than some computerish-syntaxed language, and somehow makes it simpler to build decision rules which reflect our intentions and mental description of a problem—but then again, Inform7 is one of those things you either love it or ate it, and not all IF designer went for it, some stuck to older Object-Oriented Language designing tools.

Also, Inform7 has the Skein tool/functionality, which allows to keep track of all possible different player paths in the game—both graphically and textually—thus making it easier to test and debug all story paths and ramifications.

Anyhow, speaking from my experience I think that Inform7 as a tool, and text-adventures as a game genre, are a good medium for ground-testing Dramatica in non-linear interactive fiction: (1) Inform7 source code almost looks like English, so most people can make sense of it and follow the game mechanics; (2) text-adventures can be a good compromise between storytelling and gaming, without actually leaving the field of writing.

Then, whatever lessons are to be learned from such experiments, they can easily be transposed to other video game genres.

Tristano

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I have a hard time understanding how gamers could play as anyone other than the MC. The very act of puppeteering / manuevering a character makes it the personal, subjective view.

The only possibility I can think of is in the first-person POV genres, where it’s possible to never display the avatar. The player could act as a cameraman and spend time documenting the MC’s adventures.

Basically, if you’re not the MC, then who you’re operating must have zero dramatic impact on the story, IMO.

Assuming that the player controls some sort of character in an environment (that doesn’t have to be the case after all) then, yeah, it would make sense if that character is the Main Character. When I suggested removing the MC Throughline I didn’t mean that we shouldn’t play the MC, but rather that, Dramatica-wise, their throughline isn’t developed (or not as developed as the other throughlines).

I’m not sure if talking about Multiplayer experiences like D&D helps at this stage at all.

In the project I described, you would actually have a developed MC throughline. As mentioned, the psychologist character and patient character are separated so that we have an in-universe excuse why you can’t just solve the problem from the beginning, and why we can choose between different stories (story forms). It seems as though the major difference between my idea and @SPotter’s is the framing.

I listened to the Susan O’Connor podcast and there wasn’t really anything I haven’t heard before aside from the protagonist issue @SPotter mentions. I don’t necessarily agree with what she’s saying though? I mean, yeah, we wouldn’t feel for Walter White’s family like he would, if you start the game and “BAM! there’s your family! love them!” If we start without a family and learn to love the characters throughout the first part of the game, then maybe we could get something similar to Breaking Bad.

She also speaks of the gamer’s mindset of “I don’t care what I’m doing as long as I’m winning” which is something that you probably shouldn’t support if writing an interactive story is your goal instead of “just” making a fun game (Relevant article by frictional games, in their game Amnesia, they actually tell the player at the beginning that it’s not about beating the game). There are people playing “Papers, Please” without considering ethical issues; they simply look at how to best beat the game. But I would guess that most people do look at what they’re doing to these fictional people. And, I don’t think using something as taxing as Dramatica makes a whole lot of sense if all you’re trying to do is put some decoration to hang of your gameplay.

I was thinking about what would happen if you left certain essential questions unanswered at the beginning, like the Judgment as @SPotter suggested. With Judgment, we leave things like Unique Abilities, Critical Flaws, Inhibitors, Catalysts and the Plot Progression open (at least with Linear Main Characters; for whatever reason, the Holistic ones have further reach). And I wonder if one could show these story points more or less ambiguously for a while until setting them at the end. For example, for the first three acts, the MC’s unique ability seems to be Senses but it could also be Conditioning; their Critical Flaw is either State of Being or Circumstances. During the fourth act, and after the player made certain choices beforehand, we determine that the MC’s unique ability was actually a case of Senses, while their critical flaw has something to do with their Circumstances, ending the story with a Good judgment.

Although if the point of the game is to make a point, then maybe it would be better to have two Resolve/Judgment combinations. E.g. remain steadfast and it ends badly, change and it ends well. Or something like that.

@Tristano , when I was making my project, I used the Star Wars storyform to make the first storymind, simply because I found that one to be the easiest to grasp and the world is kind of video-gamey to begin with. I think that if someone were to take the storyform of “Pride and Prejudice” and turned it into Interactive Fiction, it wouldn’t be all too different from current Visual Novels and/or Dating Sims.


@jhull I wasn’t really trying to make your post look insincere. I was just observing how sarcasm has apparently become my default when it comes to reading people’s positive declarations.

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I must definitely ask Melanie permission to reproduce here part of her email reply to my question (I wouldn’t feel at ease just pasting it here without asking first). I can’t for obvious reason restate her long mail without incurring in the risk of distorting part of her considerations (her reply is lengthy, and words are selectively picked).

But, yes: Melanie did provide an argument for placing the player in a non-MC position, and she suggested as an example the position of a narrator (further distinguishing between passive and active narrators), his role being that of determining by himself the order of exploration of the story-world components. Her explanation took in consideration the fact that after the unraveling of the whole story, the audience is left with an understanding which is beyond the mere order of exploration—in fact, I add, for stories where temporal order is non linear (eg: movies like Memento, or the European edition of Once Upon A Time in America) we are able to mentally reconstruct the whole story (including its missing parts, or anyhow to fill the holes, like it happens with propaganda techniques).

If player was narrator, the MC could be a character we meet in the game world, relating to us about his throughline ongoings and progress, but at the same time free to carry on along his due journey—I gather that he would become like a yardstick to us, allowing us to measure story progress by how he is doing and what he tells us. Surely, it will have to be a very interactive NPC. Still, we could aid him, pave his path for him, or hinder him, and then measure the results of those actions on the overall storyline (as well as the MC’s line as well)—which game-wise would qualify us as Sidekick or Contagonist, or some other objective archetype role. Still, at the end the story would have unfolder its due course, and we would appreaciate its Gr.Argument.

I guess there could also be a God-Like modality of playing, where we soon come to realizing that our actions affect the gameworld in deep manners.

Anyhow, Melanie also confirmed that player as MC would require a linear experience of impact by events and Obstacle Character, and so on.

True, being in a character give the player a subjective view of the game. But then again, cut scenes can be presented out-of-character, and the player can be moved temporarily to other game characters—I can also think of many console games where you play different characters in different chapters, and this is often done to allow the player to gain overall knowledge not accessible through a single character. What was a character’s subjective view before, will no longer look thus when you’re in his opponent shoes. Also, I’m thinking of the theory book metaphor of the General, the soldier, and so on. As long as you are playing an objective character without having to worry about his resolve, personal problem, ecc., then you are interacting objectively with the story.

Now, as for passionate and dispassionate argument … well, I guess that even if you are moved to another character you’ll be still passionate about the previous character you’ve driven so far. It dipends how its presented, and what role the new PC has to the MC. If the game was Star Wars, and all of a sudden you were thrown into one of the robots, in the middle of 2n Act, probably you’d still be thinking of Luke’s faith, and act to help him from your new perspective. Does it make sense? Or am I missing a point here?

Melanie also mentioned the possibility of getting rid of MC altogether, along the lines of propaganda-techniques mentioned in this thread.

Her mail then goes quite deep into the subject, bringing up the issues of “open-system IF worlds” (“no fixed narrative, just a fixed subject matter story world”), which could have either an “open-ended” narrative (“never-ending”) or one that is “closed but constantly reorganizing itself into a different form”. But here my ability to report without distorting fails, because she enters the subject of fractal psychology, and how Mental Relativity allows to add higher (or lower) levels of abstraction to accomodate similar situations.

But it’s clear to me from her email that the subject of Dramatica’s potential use for non-linear videogames has been touched upon before, and it’s possibile. I’ll write her to ask permission to paste here her email, which I’m sure would provide a good twist to the thread.

@bobRaskoph:

I was thinking about what would happen if you left certain essential questions unanswered at the beginning, like the Judgment as @SPotter suggested. With Judgment, we leave things like Unique Abilities, Critical Flaws, Inhibitors, Catalysts and the Plot Progression open (at least with Linear Main Characters; for whatever reason, the Holistic ones have further reach). And I wonder if one could show these story points more or less ambiguously for a while until setting them at the end. For example, for the first three acts, the MC’s unique ability seems to be Senses but it could also be Conditioning; their Critical Flaw is either State of Being or Circumstances. During the fourth act, and after the player made certain choices beforehand, we determine that the MC’s unique ability was actually a case of Senses, while their critical flaw has something to do with their Circumstances, ending the story with a Good judgment.

Although if the point of the game is to make a point, then maybe it would be better to have two Resolve/Judgment combinations. E.g. remain steadfast and it ends badly, change and it ends well. Or something like that.

These are fine points, and useful observations. I didn’t realize that linear/holistic difference left such a long “corridor” open in the way of storypoints.

And yes, I’m planning to approach the issue like you advice: choose a well formed story already existing (in my case, not just the storyform, but the whole story), and which offers good gaming potential (if not in terms of plot, at least in terms of world-exploration) and then make some sort of re-adaption work in IF. Hopefully, I was thinking of some P.K.Dick novel, which usually provide nice worlds for interactivity. I am not sure though if his novels do qualify for Grand Argument Stories—usually they are rather short, and even though Blade Runner the movie (but also Paycheck and other adaptations) does provide a Gr.Ar.St., the short novel it was adapted from might not. I know I could just fill in the holes, but my whole point is that I want to have the chance that players might compare the original novel experience to the gaming one, and see if playing it provides the same dramatic impact or not.

Surely, Sci-Fi is a good genre for IF, even if plot is brought forth by the game mechanics, the environment offers ample possibilities for significant puzzle-solvings that might relate to storypoints.

Best regards,

Tristano

      • MELANIE A. PHILIPS ON DRAMATICA FOR IF * * *

Melanie replied to my email request and granted me permission to paste in this thread her email on the subject. So here is the email body text (dated, 30 Oct 2015):

Here’s the gist of using Dramatica for IF (we have made a number of presentations on this to various companies over the years, but never resulting in a contract for consulting, as of yet).

At the most basic level, consider how a story appears to an audience after it is completed. It ceases to be a linear experience and becomes a networked experience in which all dramatic elements of the storyform are appreciated at once, rather than revealed over time. Further, when you separate the storytelling sequence of linearity from the story structural temporal progressions of growth, for example, you can appreciate that growth in all its stages at once, after the story has been experienced.

Once an audience leaves a story, though they may replay certain sequences in their minds, they tend to consider the story as a whole - a world in which things happened rather than a pathway that was followed.

Consider, then, the first-person player perspective in a game is not necessarily to provide experiences in a sequence that will bring the MC to the point of potential change, but rather to explore all corners of the Story World until the nature of how all the elements and dynamics at work in that particular storyform are identified and understood.

Also consider just because the player is in first person in the game does not require that the player be the main character. In many stories there is a narrator. Narrators can be passive or active. The player, by choosing in what order to explore the world is much better put in the position of narrator, the interlocutor who determines for himself or herself the order in which the components of the story world are to be explored - much as one might make multiple trips to a buffet table or select items in dim sum and choose the order in which to consume them.

Sure, if one insisted the player were the MC, then you would be locked into a linear experience of being impacted by events and by the Influence Character in a particular order. But an IF in which the player is actually the narrator, then the MC appears from time to time in the story world, having experienced things in the proper order for him to make a choice, but likely in a different order than the player. For example, the MC in the story world shows up and the player says - “Let’s work together and head up to the badlands.” The MC replies, “Already been there, just before the big explosion. Change me in ways I’d rather not talk about, but it made me realize there may be another way of looking at the morality of this whole conflict.” And then he disappears back into the battle.

In this manner, the MC is separated from the Player and can go about his journey of discovery in the proper order.

So, while eliminating the MC may be a technique (as described in some of the propaganda entries in your message thread), I feel that for IF you simply don’t want your player as the MC but definitely want him in the game with the player as self determining narrator.

But, your questions go beyond this in two specific areas: One, how does one handle multiple narratives (storyforms) within the same narrative space and, Two, what about open-system IF worlds in which there is no fixed narrative, just a fixed subject matter story world in which the narrative is either open-ended (never-ending) or is closed but constantly reorganizing itself into a different form.

As for the first question, narratives are fractal by nature (see my articles and videos on narrative psychology). Even within a single narrative there are two fractal dimensions - that of the group mind and that of the individuals within the group mind. As you know, story structure came to be because storytellers were trying to document what goes on in our heads and hearts and also how we relate to one another. Each of us has certain built-in attributes such as Reason and Skepticism (as seen in the Reason and Skeptic archetypes). We use the full complement of these to solve our individual problems. But when we come together in a group to solve or explore an issue of common interest or concern, we immediately begin to specialize so that the individual best at reasoning becomes the Voice of Reason for the group. The most skeptical becomes the group’s resident Skeptic. In this manner, all the fundamental attributes of any individual mind are replicated and represented by individuals in the group mind. In this manner, group issues are explored from all essential sides and in greater depth by the specialists than could be achieved by a group of general practitioners who are all trying to do all the jobs at the same time.

This tendency to form group minds made up of specialists is what was observed by storytellers and documented in the conventions of story structure and is also what forms the basis for the fabric and framework of social interactions.

So, the first fractal dimension is the mind of the individual that is then replicated in the second fractal dimension of the group mind. But, one is not solely a member of a single group. We have one narrative role in our business, another perhaps as a parent, or in our political party, a proud resident of a state, of the nation, or even just as a fan of a particular television program or of a rock star.

Within the narrative space of our lives, we may belong to more than one group mind and these group minds may occupy completely different areas of the narrative space, may move through the narrative space gradually shifting the subject matter with which they deal, may share a sub set of content that is affected by both, may move through each other like galaxies colliding, may pass each other close enough to alter the storyform of each almost gravitationally (dynamically) even though they never actually share the same space, and some narratives may be satellites of other narratives or may be connected in additional levels of fractal association.

On that last point, for example, one may may be a member of a clique that is part of a club that is part of a movement that is part of political organization within a state that is in a collective effort within a country. Like nested dolls, all of what is at the top is determined by all that is at the lower fractal levels, but the top also defines the largest parameters of the group identity and therefore the personal identity of all individual members at the bottom of the fractal hierarchy, while each lower dimension contributes more refined subordinate traits to the lowest level individuals, defining them but also identifying them as different in some ways than other branches within the same general organization.

And so, people become groups and act as archetypes within them, then several groups band together within a larger group mind in which the smaller groups act as archetypes and so on, in a fractal manner, until the group reaches the maximum membership and number of levels it can sustain before collapsing from beneath due to the intrinsic differences of the lowest level members in which personal needs may outweigh allegiance and conformity to group ideals.

As for your second inferred question, storyforms can alter in an unlimited manner due to forces external to the storyform but in the same narrative space. And so, if you begin with a structure and that defines the nature and extent of the narrative, it provides an initial psychological matrix in which the player of an IF might come to be drawn into a game. But even after exploring a small portion of the initial storyform, you can provide choices to your player that would alter the storyform to create a new complete narrative that invalidates the old one. In the real world, we are always tearing down narratives and replacing them with new ones that better fit changing situations in a chaotic world. We may hold onto certain structural relationships in all of our narratives because we have found by experience that there are truisms worth maintaining. But much of what we hold as the principal driving stories of different aspects of our lives (and with different group minds) can be altered by brute force from the outside by a hostile take over, a powerful sub-group that rises to a position of leverage, or even by a change in circumstances such as an earthquake that destroys the power grid.

By nature, we try to maintain as much of the previous narrative as we can, for that is our experience base, but new rules come into play. And so, we accept the new that cannot be changed, then using that as a seed, go on to build a new narrative beginning with the elements from the old that are still possible within the new reality and that are most important to us. We add in as many of our most important narrative pieces as we can within the constraints of the new elements that have been imposed, and then make the best possible remaining new choices to create a new narrative. For without a narrative, we have no framework by which to evaluate our lives and ourselves or even to measure if things are getting better or worse.

So in conclusion (for now) consider that narratives are constantly creating new fractal dimensions at both the top when they form a new larger group mind and at the bottom when an individual department has grown so large it must cease to be an individual and become a group mind by sub-dividing into smaller departments. In addition, they are constantly affect by other narratives in the same narrative space, even to the point of having some of their elements and relationships altered so that the narrative must reform in a new form. And so, the ongoing expansion and contraction of fractals and cascading reformation through forces outside the limits of the closed system of individual narratives creates a vibrant and energetic dynamic environment in which IF can flourish.

Thanks for asking some interesting questions and pointing to an interesting message thread.

Melanie
Storymind

As you can see, the reply digs into the question from different angles, and offers a good context view of how Dramatica might be applied to IF games—no way I could resume it without messing up its detailed explanation.

I really hope this might become a good reference point on the subject.

Tristano

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Here is the same text posted on Melanie’s site under the title, “Using Dramatica for Interactive Fiction”: http://storymind.com/page545.htm

Wow, a TON of info! I’ll try to read it over the weekend.