Storyform woes (would love some help :) )

questions
#1

Quick question guys,

I have a story which focuses on two people working together (MC & IC) to set each other up with their best friends. in addition, story also looks at how people judge others (good and bad) by superficialities without giving them a chance to get to know them. Now this goal of setting each other up is the plot (OS) but no one else is on it aside from them, so am I right in thinking it’s an OS activity story and not Relationship activity? It seems OS = Activity with a goal of Obtaining

I’m asking because I’m struggling to find a storyform that fits, it’s an adapation so some things are set (and they feel right anyway):
Goal faliure / judgment good / steadfast / be-er
MC is very organised, in control - unqiue ability may be related to being commited to the plan
IC very chaotic, rude, uncontrolled - unique ability (power over mc) is her personality/way of being (also flaw)

No matter what I choose I can’t nail the MC and IC points, so I was thinking I might be wrong with the OS (acitvity / obtaining)

Any help would b greatly appreciated!

#2

I’m going to go with your gut on this one: you should put the RS in Activity.

Right off the top, I’m going to say that I could see this going many ways, and fitting different storyforms, but here is my argument about RS>Activity

Given that it is a story about love, it doesn’t feel to me like merely getting the date set-up is going to accomplish the OS Goal. Ask anyone on Tinder; just getting a date isn’t the solution to being lovelorn.

So, maybe more than focusing on where to put the Activity story, think hard about what would bring the story about to a success ending (even though it’s a failure). Is this getting something? Or is it more like a feeling of some sort.

I don’t know about you, but any time anyone tried to set me up, my reaction was always, That’s how you see me? As someone who would like her? Success would have had much more to do with them really getting what I wanted in a date/girlfriend, and less to do with the actual date.

In this set-up, the OS would be about manipulating their friends into going on the dates.

1 Like
#3

Thank you so much for the reply!

The way you put it is excellent, I hadn’t thought about it that way.

I feel super guilty for asking follow up questions but i’m eager for advice and to learn, so i’ll bite my tongue and post them:

  1. I guess the biggest obstacle for choosing Manipulation as the OS Domain was I couldn’t figure out the goal - do you have suggestions out of the 4?
  2. Would you suggest Success? (IC gives up towards the end as she’s secretly fallen for MC, so they both focus on the MC’s ‘happiness’ but of course the MC realises they’ve fallen for IC as well - though they end up happily together, the original goal that drove the story was abandoned - that’s why I put failure)

.
Thanks once again for the response, it’s really made re-think this.

.

.
P.S. with the understandinging that i’m not the best at articulating, the story is summarised much better here (I just replaced the names with MC/IC):

> MC is frustrated at trying to look his best as he enters his last year of high school. Despite his gentle personality, his eyes give him the appearance of an intimidating delinquent. He is happy to be classmates with his best friend, as well as the girl he has a crush on. However, he unexpectedly runs into IC—who just happens to be [his crush’s] best friend. IC has a negative attitude towards others and has a habit of snapping violently at people. When MC discovers that IC has a crush on [his best friend], and IC finds out about MC’s affections towards [her best friend], they make an arrangement to help set each other up with their crushes. Over the course of the series, they to set up romantic situations to help each other get to know their friends, but many of the situations backfire. Their classmates observe that they are spending a lot of time with each other, leading to rumors that they might be a couple. Although MC/IC try to dispel the rumors, they find that they do enjoy each other’s company, with IC visiting MC’s house to share meals, and MC checking up on IC to get her to school, and cleaning for her. [adding to the theme of manipulation] They meet [his best friend’s] childhood friend, who appears to be friendly and is a self-proclaimed ditz, but beneath her facade is a rather mean and spoiled brat, and she quickly finds herself at odds with IC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toradora!

#4

Follow-ups are a must. It’s the only way to see if you’ve understood, and go gain new understanding.

If you went with Being/Playing a Role then I could see something like The boys have to stop pretending to be people they aren’t – as in, you gotta be truthful, or ya ain’t gonna find love. This would put the RS in Doing which feels pretty good.

Conceiving could be something like: They are trying to get their friends to see “this is a guy you should go out with!” but their problem is that they are being expedient and not actually fulfilling what people need.

Changing One's Nature could have to do with people turning 25, 30, 35 and having to give up their single ways.

Developing a Plan … Imagine them trying to put together a long singles weekend, where people are supposed to mix and mingle, but nobody can agree on the right kinds of activities. Think of how much you would learn about people if you suggest they go dancing and they suggest you go bowling.

Generally, happy endings have Success, but think about Developing a Plan: the Protagonist could easily plan the get-away weekend for singles, but the MC and IC don’t go because they go off together to elope.

…
Now I have a question – are you rewriting Toradora? Is it good, should I watch it?

1 Like
#5

Setting people up is a problem in the Psychology Domain - because you’re manipulating the way people think.

#6

I would say it’s mostly good, with some questionable choices especially towards the end. Here’s a youtube review (with spoilers) that I would generally agree with. (It also kinda tells you the “message” of the story, I suppose)

–

@furiouswolf I watched Toradora (and read a few of the light novels it’s based on). Are you trying to find a fitting storyform for it? If so, some things come to mind:

  • if the goal of setting each other up is the OS plot, then there are other people who are in on it. The “self-proclaimed ditz”, MC and IC’s crushes, and their classmates sooner or later get involved, though they’re against the stated goal.
  • If I had to pick a domain of conflict for everyone (even without MC and IC) I would pick Psychology. Everyone’s problems are caused by their way of thinking, not so much their activities, let alone situations. You might argue for Mind, though.
  • If we consider MC and IC as perspectives, instead of characters, then how would you define those perspectives, and how does IC’s perspective challenge MC’s? I don’t know. If we put OS/RS in Psychology/Physics, and MC is a Be-er, then MC would be Mind and IC would be Universe. How does IC’s situation influence MC? She lives alone, her father is a terrible parent and human being, her mother is somewhere else. She is short and has some complexes because of it…
  • Maybe this doesn’t make sense, but have you considered the “self-proclaimed ditz” as IC? She challenges MC’s perspective more than anyone else, but that might be part of another function…
1 Like
#7

Again thank you for the response and Jim for clarifying! Those examples are really helpful.

Yes and I thought it was excellent, very funny and quirky but most importantly a lot of heart - if you like rom-coms I’d strongly recommend the first two episodes and that’ll tell you whether you’ll like it or not (it’s not a ‘it gets better’ type of show, it’s very consistent from the start). If you do the watch the first ep, let me know if you have any ideas on the MC/IC story points :grinning:

This is by far the hardest storyform i’ve worked on, the MC/IC points are the biggest issue. MC is very responsible, cooks/cleans for IC / IC is very confrontational and chaotic and it’s difficult finding Unique Abilities and Flaws for both that work.

2 Likes
#8

I would caution against focusing on Unique Abilities and Critical Flaws too much when trying to determine the storyform. (Same with Catalyst/Inhibitor.) Better to really focus on the Domain/Concern/Issue/Problem, and Symptom/Response. I find that gets to the heart of things better. When I get the right storyform I often scratch my head looking at the UA/CFs for a minute, until suddenly I realize they fit incredibly well.

Also remember that the Unique Abilities and Critical Flaws – or any story points – are often not directly tied to the characters (since throughlines are perspectives anyway, not actual characters). @jhull put it best in an article when he said something like, Dramatica’s appreciations are not attributes you assign to a D&D character.

For example, an IC Critical Flaw of Denial might be the IC getting rejected by someone else, or even further removed, like the IC’s grandma being denied health insurance. As long as it somehow weakens or hinders the IC’s influence on the MC, it works.

1 Like
#9

I didn’t see the rest of your post originally, sorry! Those are some great points.

I haven’t considered Ami as IC, but that’s interesting. I believed it to be Taiga because she’s the one who comes in and affects his life the most. I saw it as something relating to control vs. chaos with him remaining steadfast and her getting more of her life together due to his influence.

Like I said, it’s a tricky one :grinning: 100% agree on Be-er/Fixed for MC - that’s the only thing i’ve been sure on. Would you agree the outcome/judgment is Failure/Good? I thought Dividend of Innermost Desires fit as well as at least MC/Taiga are finding some form of happiness working together.

#10

Thanks for the advice! and yes, I do forgot sometimes how indirect the encoding can be :slight_smile:

#11

[quote=“furiouswolf, post:9, topic:1199”]Like I said, it’s a tricky one :grinning: 100% agree on Be-er/Fixed for MC - that’s the only thing i’ve been sure on. Would you agree the outcome/judgment is Failure/Good? I thought Dividend of Innermost Desires fit as well as at least MC/Taiga are finding some form of happiness working together.
[/quote]

Like @mlucas said about Unique Ability und Flaw, I think the Dividend probably isn’t the best point to start with, especially since you can find happiness with any given type.

I do think that Ryuji is a Be-er; he mostly internalizes things, and if you read the novels, you know that he tends to chastise himself for what/how he thinks. One could even say that in the last arc we see a tease of what might happen if Ryuji changed to Situation instead of the other way around…?

I definitely agree on Steadfast and Be-er, though I’m not quite sure about Outcome and Judgment. What exactly is the baggage that Ryuji brings into the story that he gets over at the end? Is “setting the other up with their crushes” really the goal of the story… or is it something else? The story keeps going even after Ryuji and Taiga get together. And it doesn’t feel like it’s just dragging its feet to fill the obligatory number of episodes.

In general, what is Toradora “about”? You said it “looks at how people judge people by superficialities without giving them a chance to know them.” But while that’s where most of the early frustrations come from, I don’t know if I would call that the “thesis” of the story. As cliche as it might be, it’s mostly about… love. Immature, simplistic views of love and how those views can lead to a lot of frustration and pain. Most of the cast are teenagers who have never been in actual romantic relationships. And even the adults show this immaturity: Ryuji’s child-like, single mother, Taiga’s parents (especially her father), the homeroom teacher…

So maybe the goal is to figure out what all this fluffy nonsense is all about.

I will have to think about this further, but right now I see the concerns in either the lower right corner or, less likely, the upper left, since I can’t tell how memories would be a concern to Ryuji.

1 Like
#12

Great insight, given me a lot to think about.

I wonder if the ‘how others see them’ theme I picked up on might just be one of the other throughline’s themes (I think there’s something to it as it affects Ryuji with his eyes, Taiga with her reputation, Ami with her beauty, Minori appearing optimistic, possibly the teacher with her age, Ryuji’s mother’s appearance etc.) because I agree the overall message does appear to be about obtaining a more mature perspective on relationships in general. I 100% agree on the where the concerns are:

Not starting on those points this time, this is where I am with the storyform, or at least the one i’m looking at.

  • OS Goal: Conceiving an Idea (e.g. trying to put a thought in / change their minds)
  • OS Issue: Deficiency (I looked up the definition aagain and it’s defined as a motivation based on lacking something / feel uncontent / inadequate / unfufilled)
  • OS Problem: Evaluation or Re-evaluation (not sure if either fit, but a lack of Evaluation could revolve around people giving poor evaluations to their circumstances due to their lack of maturity, the Dramatica dictionary mentions that Evaluation gives people a better grasp on how to deal with an issue - they may be adopting the wrong ‘hows’ - :confused:)
  • MC Issue: Appraisal (being aware of people’s inaccurate initial impressions)
  • MC Problem/Solution: Inaction or Protection
  • MC Symptom/Response: Possibility or Probability
  • MC UA: Appraisal - IC UA: Attraction
  • MC Flaw: Permission (lacking in ability) - IC Flaw: Prerequisites

Maybe i’m way off at the moment, it’s probably incorrect as these choices put the PS Style as Intuitive and Ryuji feels Logical to me; but I feel like like an accurate storyform is getting much closer.

#13

Mind, Conscious, Appraisal, Protection describes Ryuji’s conflict so well, I fear it might be a trap.

Something I thought of concerning the last two episodes: Ryuji and Taiga decide to elope, which would make both of them more like Taiga (living away from family, on their own), but then decide to stay. In addition, Taiga decides that she cannot be with Ryuji until she truly reconnects with her family. I had a lot of issues with these last episodes, but the idea of showing what it would be like if Ryuji switched to Taiga’s situation, and then having Taiga switch to Ryuji’s makes it more palatable.

I like a lot of things about Steadfast, Stop, Be-er, Linear, Action, Optionlock, Success, Good, Psychology, Conceiving, Deficiency, Re-evaluation but it’s just a gut feeling (I can’t really defend Re-evaluation as a problem right now, unless we see it as a lack thereof). It’s been a while since I’ve seen the show and to truly identify the storyform, I probably have to watch it again. I don’t know if I can find the time to do that.

1 Like
#14

Me too and that’s an awesome point. I like that as well, it’s similar to what I was thinking but I think you’ve rightly got Ryuji as Logical. If that’s not the most accurate storyform, I think it’s very close. I disagree what you’d have to watch again, I think what you’ve remembered is excellent.

Going with your suggestions, I want to see how well I can encode it, if you have any suggestions please let me know :pray: :grinning:

OS

  • Concern - Concieving An Idea - Ryuji/Taiga trying to convince Kitamaru/Minori that they’re bf/gf material (likewise with Kitamaru and the president) / Ami trying to decieve people into how much of a nice girl she was for a while etc.
  • Issue - Deficiency vs. permission [lack of ability] = disparity between feeling unfufilled but not knowing what to do to fix it
  • Problem - Re-evaluation - people not stopping to assess their situations/circumstances and how things might have changed
  • Consequence - Gathering Information - going to have to figure out how to live seemingly unhappy/unfufilled?
  • Cost - The Present = looking like idiots / embarrassing themselves when things go wrong
  • Dividends - Contemplation = becoming better informed / more sensible as they learn through mistakes

.
Ryuji

  • Drive (correct perspective as steadfast/success) - Protection = [might be a stretch as it can be seen as responsibility] constanty looks out for the people he cares for, and I think mostly goes along with Taiga, less to get to Minori and more to look out for her to make sure she doesn’t do anything too stupid / become a laughing stock
  • Solution (he should avoid) - Inaction = not protecting those he cares for would do no favours to anyone and would make him miserable / (since the IC is supposed to push MC towards their solution) Taiga could be trying to push him in his direction indirectly by refusing help when she does
  • Symptom - Possibility = people over-thinking things and that affecting him?
  • Response - Probability = reminding people to think of likely result of their actions?
  • Issue - Appraial vs. Re-appraisal = people being attached to their initial impressions without looking deeper (he’s not a delinquent because of his genes, Taiga’s not who she appears to be)?
  • Unique Ability - Reappraisal = checking to see if they’re on the right course and doing the correct things?
  • Flaw - Deficiency = feeling inadequate / insecure

.
Taiga

  • Issue - Attraction vs. Repulsion = [conciously] Taiga wants to keep people at bay (as a way of protecting herself) but she also wants to be seen as attractive again by Kitamaru / [subconciously/unaware] she wants be attractive to Ryuji, whilst being too scared to fully let him in, thus keeping their relationship close but platonic with insults, put-downs and the ocassional violence / when other characters look at Taiga - it shows them how these are really two sides of the same coin
  • Problem (wrong perspective / the real cause of her issues) (must be internal as she’s a Do-er and wrong) - Re-evaluate = a lack of - she doesn’t stop to re-evaluate her feelings?
  • Solution (what would make her happy) (as above) - Evaluate = seeing the big picture in her life?
  • Symptom (belives the cause of issues to be…) (must be external) - Inaction = [maybe in the past] letting others take advantage of her and cause her pain?
  • Response (so she…) (as above) - Protection - builds walls to protect her feelings, developing a reputation as aggresive and cold-hearted
  • Unique Ability (power over MC that no else has and is related to…) - Repulsion = maybe one of these … 1) how she ignores the disencouraging elements of chasing the goal and just goes for it which inspires him / 2) how she so aggressively pushes people way but there’s clearly something more going on there, which intruiges him / 3) how gently pushes him away with insults/put-downs/violence and no one else treats him this way / 4) how she’s not driven away by his intimidating presence
  • Flaw (inluence undermined by something to do with …) - Precondition = her behaviour and/or approach can make achieving the goal harder than it should be

Relationship Issue - Precondition vs. Prerequisite = ? (something to do with the steps neccesary to meet a requirement revolving around the petty annoyances, frustrations, and sources of friction associated with them) maybe if it’s worth putting up with annoyances and frustrations to continue towards the goal?

.
That’s the best I can do at the moment, you’ve suggested a really good storyform for it.

1 Like
Would Madoka Magica have some storyforms going on?