4 Events vs Armando Event

[GetSchwifty]

Could I get some clarity around what the difference is?

Dramatica theory says each scene has 4 Events of the Class kind: Situation, Activity, Psychology, State of Mind (or whatever the official names are).

Armando says, on page 135 on my Kindle, in the section EVENTS, SCENES, SEQUENCES AND ACTS that ‘A Scene is All The Things That Happen Around A Single Event.’

Those are two contradictory definitions, so I assume the word Event is being used in two different ways.

Also, Sequence appears to be used differently than in the Theory Book.

[jhull]

Armando != Dramatica

[jassnip]

I don’t feel comfortable speaking for Armando, but I can give you my interpretation…

In order for something to be a Scene it must have 4 criteria met

There must be:

1. a change of circumstance for the character(s)
2. that change MUST be important to the characters
3. it’s irreversible (no take backs)
4. and it sends the character in a new direction (in the plot).

IF you do those 4 things you will automatically cover (Sitch, FA, Manip, and Activity) so don’t worry about them, they’re in there, if not directly then by implication.

[MiggsEye]

@jassnip

To clarify are you saying that…

1. a change of circumstance for the character(s) = Situation OR Universe?
2. that change MUST be important to the characters = Fixed Attitude OR Mind?
3. it’s irreversible (no take backs) = Manipulation OR Psychology?
4. and it sends the character in a new direction (in the plot). = Activity OR Physics?

[GetSchwifty]

she’s quoting Armando, his 4 rules for a True Event.

IF you do those 4 things you will automatically cover (Sitch, FA, Manip, and Activity) so don’t worry about them, they’re in there, if not directly then by implication.

Interesting interpretation but I am not sure that’s right. I mean, I don’t know. So much to think about! Gyaaah!

shortly after that in the signpost as sequence chapter he indicates this as a way to come up with Scene Events, a subdivision of Sequence Events, by concentrating on cause and effect, and source and outcome

armando sequence events.pdf (23.0 KB)

[MiggsEye]

Yes. I understand that, @GetSchwifty. My point (and it may be a weak one) is in making the correlation between each of those 4 things relating to each of the specific elements of the 4 Classes.

[GetSchwifty]

Yeah that was interesting.

[jassnip]

I wasn’t intentionally drawing a parallel between the 4 scene criteria and the 4 domains. Although I can see it now that you point it out. Soooo, idk, maybe?

But maybe and example will help. I’m pulling this example from Holly Lisle’s Writing Page-Turning Scenes. I’m using this particular example because of it’s simplicity, and because there are ZERO characters in the scene (yet), and the 4 domains are all implied.

White wall, white ceiling, cold and stark and simple. And silence, nonbreathing silence, patient, without creaks or ticks or hums. Light, morning light came through that far window and cast squares of whiter white high up, and dust motes sparkled. And then a stain on the white ceiling, first pale, and then dark red like old roses, red that grew glossy, a little mar in the perfection. And then a drop. Red. Slid from the ceiling down the wall, a single jagged line that traced itself over textured paint, dancing, dancing, while the dust motes sparkled and the bright white squares of the morning sun tracked down the wall ahead of it.

Now here is a scene

You have a change (blood) of importance (dead body?) that is irreversible (can’t change dead) and will send characters in a new direction (will have to investigate).

You also have things implied
you have a situation : a murder
you have an activity: discovery of a body or something else gruesome
you have a fixed attitude: the will to kill (or scare)
you have psych/manip: the message sent through the murder/scare tactic

So, I repeat IF you have taken care of Armando’s 4 criteria for a scene you will automatically have the 4 domains represented — at least I have always found this to be true.

Does that help any?

[mlucas]

@jassnip

IF you do those 4 things you will automatically cover (Sitch, FA, Manip, and Activity) so don’t worry about them, they’re in there, if not directly then by implication.

Diane, I’m not sure I agree with this. I agree with your (Holly’s?) rules about what makes a scene, but I think a good scene will include all of the classes (Sitch, FA, Manip, and Activity), and not just implied but actually in the scene.

For example I’ve struggled with writing scenes that were all talking – even when the stuff they’re talking about is super awesome or surprising or emotional – before realizing it was missing an Activity. The activity adds something to the scene even though the scene already met the criteria for what defines a scene.

[jassnip]

The 4 criteria for a scene, just to be clear, are Armando’s.

I agree that a scene would be stronger if you have the classes/domains specifically accounted for. But I’d have to see the scene in question to know if, one, it was a scene with the 4 criteria and then, two, if it had the classes/domains. I don’t know what you were accounting for, or how. I can only say, I’ve never seen it myself. And I see an awful lot of scene, or not scenes…depending. My guess is that there was probably something missing.

Another possibility, is that if they were all talking then it might have been a sequel rather than a scene.

[Khodu]

I absolutely love Holly Lisle! I’m combining her stuff with Dramatica as well. Very interesting results. She helps with a way to think of things.

[jassnip]

I’ll even go so far as to say. A single line of dialogue can be a scene that covers Armando’s 4 criteria and then by implication the 4 classes/domains.

“I’m pregnant,” she said, then puked on his tennies.

1. Change of circumstance - check
2. Important to character(s) - check
3. Irreversible - check (at least not easily, or without it’s own scene material)
4. sends the character(s) in a new direction - check

Character is definitely in a new sitch - check
The puking (activity) is new - check
People always have strong opinions on the newly preggers - FA - check
And there is usually some adjustment needed (mentally) to the thought/reality of becoming a parent. - psychology

[RailwayAdventurer]

I have no idea about connecting Armando’s scene criteria with the Domains, but @jhull did connect them with the four Variations under Conceptualizing.

Irreversible = Situation (Variation, not Concern)
Changing the Character’s Circumstances = Circumstances
New and Important Purposes = Sense of Self
Meaningful to the Characters = State of Being

Source: https://narrativefirst.com/blog/2016/09/a-skeleton-of-scene-structure-in-dramatica

[MWollaeger]

@jassnip… I don’t want to rain on the ideas here, but I see very little Dramatica in your example scenes.

“I’m Pregnant”
Dramatica critique: where is the conflict in this?
The prince won’t marry a woman if she thinks she’s barren. She’s pregnant?! Well, conflict resolved.

Armando critique:
Important to the character? Where does it say this? You, the reader, are bringing this.
Irreversible – what exactly is irreversible here? If she thought she was barren, then yes. Otherwise, I can point you to an entire movie based on the reversibility of this situation. (I know you basically said this.)
Sends the characters in a new direction? Again, you bring that to the interpretation.

Is the character in a new sitch? Not if she’s a slave kept to bear children.
The puking? I see no puking here.

I have similar critiques for the ceiling scene, but they all go towards the same point: dramatica is about conflict, not about implications. Dramatica is about perspective, not about topic matter. A (potentially) dead body in the room above you is not a perspective.

But I have a larger point: you are seeing too much in the scenes, and I worry that when you write, you assume your readers will see more than you write and see exactly what you want them to see. This won’t happen. In fact, I know more writers who have killed their careers on the blade of implication and subtext than I know successful writers.

[jassnip]

@MWollaeger

I was giving my understanding of Armando’s criteria for what makes a scene, which is useful but separate from Dramatica. However, as I said, I can usually (I haven’t found one yet, where I can’t) also see the top tier from Dramatica domains/classes.

I will admit to dragging in my personal puking experience being pregnant…since a male reader would not have that frame of reference (or even all women) I amended the sentence.

In Dramatica for Screenwriters Chapter 14 Armando lays out his criteria for a “true event” To my interpretation the minimum necessary to create a scene, the basic building block of plot.

“I’m pregnant,” she said, then puked on his tennies.

You are right, it is the reader who brings importance to the concept. But under no circumstances are those words EVER unimportant. Go ahead find some one anyone who thought they were, I’ll wait. No? Didn’t think so. Even if you have a character that says “So what, that’s on you,” and walks away. THAT is a conflict for the character left standing there.
Irreversible - I’m sorry, being pregnant is not something you can, just undo. You have to DO something else if you want to reverse it. Are you deliberately being coy?
And new direction, again…in the context of story, this announcement will pretty much always send the characters in a new direction. Who do they tell, or not tell, do they try and hide it. Do they need to start going to prenatal care, are they in medieval and the local wise woman just croaked. There are natural consequences to being pregnant that will have to be followed up on. So no, I am not just pulling things out of my ass.

Yes, finding out you are pregnant is a new situation – what conflict the character finds there is dependent on the story being told, but a new sitch still exists – otherwise why would an author include it. To your example of a woman kept for breeding purposes (which eww, what an ugly example. have you been watching Handmaid’s Tale?) Her sitch is most definitely changed, or why make her preggers? You give her jealousy from the others that have not become pregnant, You give her special treatment or food. You give her fear of her child being taken away.

I feel like you think, I think “I’m pregnant.” is a story full and complete. And I don’t know why you’d think that. I don’t think that. But I absolutely believe that it is a full and complete scene based on Armando’s criteria and my personal writing experience. It would be one that was part of a sequence, never meant to stand alone, but separated as an emphasis to its importance.

I don’t know how to allay your fears for my writing chops. Maybe when I post my short.

[GetSchwifty]

I enjoyed reading this note enormously.

[MWollaeger]

The point is not that “I’m pregnant” is not important. It’s that it alone does not have any meaning.

This isn’t a critique of your writing chops in any way. It’s a reminder that nothing has meaning without context.

[jassnip]

I think in very Dramatica fashion we are having a Dramatica style argument, where you are saying…It all means nothing without context and I am saying Screw context, I’m talking about what makes a scene. When in fact we are both correct. You MUST make a scene…and it MUST have context. Happy now?

[museful]

“For sale: baby shoes, never worn.”

[bobRaskoph]

clearly a shoe salesman advertising their product. no conflict there.