Any examples of Judgment Bad with RS "outcome" of "positive"?

#1

I realize the RS doesn’t have a labeled outcome or judgment. I’m using the following made up “outcomes” as approximations.

I claim there are essentially two possible “positive RS outcomes”

  • There never was a conflict. The RS problem motivated the relationship. They’re on good terms at the end.
  • There was a conflict, it was resolved (or not–e.g. deemed to be not so important), and they are on good terms at the end.

I claim there is essentially one possible “negative RS outcome”

  • There was a conflict, it was resolved/concluded, and they are on bad terms at the end. This may include splitting up due to bad terms, but it does not include “being physically apart but on good terms” (e.g. ET) or “one of them dies but they are essentially on good terms at the end” (e.g. Michael Clayton). I consider those last 2 outcomes positive.

Question 1. All of the “judgment bad” stories that I can think of have the “negative RS outcome.” Can you think of an exception? That is, a “judgment bad” story that has a “positive RS outcome.” PS I also can’t think of any examples of the reverse (“judgment good” with “RS negative”). Any examples of that?

Question 2. In practice, is it feasible to have a clear cut bad with a clear cut positive? Or a clear cut good/negative? How would that play out? I’m miserable (bad) but I still have my IC to cry on (positive)? I suspect I could interpret that as good. I’m OK (good) but I also broke up with my IC (negative)? I suspect I could interpret that as bad.

#2

How are you using “conflict” here? Do you mean to say that conflict pushes the relationship apart and a lack of conflict pulls it together? Or is it more like you’re saying conflict is something they disagree or fight about and a lack of conflict means they are in agreement?

It seems clear that “positive” and “negative” means the characters end on good terms or bad respectively.

Sorry. The RS is not a strong point of mine so just want to make sure I’m reading the terms you’re using the same way everyone else is.

#3

The RS Throughline, like all the other throughlines, needs conflict. No conflict, no story ! The “Problem” element is a form of inequity : how it plays out in the relationship, be it positively (a motivation that keeps the bond alive) or negatively (a problem that drives them apart), is up to you ; but it will create conflict because it is that - an inequity. Only by employing the Solution element will the conflict come to an end. This “Solution” element can be seen as a demotivator for a more positive relationship, or a solution in a negative one : either way, it rights the inequity. Is it a good thing, or a bad thing ? It’s up to you.

I don’t have examples for Good/Negative RS or Bad/Positive RS but it’s entierely to create that. But really, it’s not a matter of Storyforming, it’s more a matter of Storytelling. “Positive” or “Negative” are storytelling tools because it is a subjective view of your story as seen by the characters, whereas Dramatica gives you an objective view of the Relationship and what is needed to right the inequity at its core.
If the Solution element is never employed, the throughline ends in Failure. However it doesn’t mean it has to be portrayed in a negative light. It’s like a Good/Failure story. Take How To Train Your Dragon : in the OS Throughline the solution is never employed, ergo failure, but it isn’t portrayed as a bad thing - everyone’s happily ridding dragons at the end so although it’s not a triumphant ending, it definitely doesn’t “feel” negative. If the writers wanted it, they could have emphasized the failure on the part of those who were for the Story Goal (making them lament their loss, showing more profound consequences, etc.), thus creating a really bittersweet feeling. The same thing can apply to the Relationship Throughline. Objectively, the goal is to solve the inequity. How you choose to portray that is a matter of storytelling, so it’s all up to you :slight_smile:

But otherwise it is entierly possible to have a RS Throughline that ends in “failure” and still have a judgment of Good, and vice-verse.

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#4

Great explanation @Rachel_Blot and pretty much the reason I asked for clarification in how the word “conflict” was being used. The RS is about the push and pull of the relationship, but still centers on an inequity even if there seems to be no tension between the characters.

@HaroldLloyd, that in mind, I’d see 4 types of RS endings. Pushing apart or pulling together ends on good terms, or pushing apart or pulling together ends on bad terms.

If the relationship in the beginning of the story is “enemies” then the characters could be pulled together to become friends or pushed apart to become stronger enemies. I think it could work the other way, too. Being pulled together makes stronger enemies and pushed apart lessons the rivalry allowing a friendship to begin.

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#5

I can’t think of any existing examples, either, but just trying to think what these would look like:

bad/positive: The MC is avenging the death of character X. He succeeds in killing the killer but knows that he has done nothing to bring character X back from the dead, has really done nothing but keep a violent and bloody feud alive. He judges his efforts to be bad. However, in the struggle to avenge character X, he ends up understanding some aspect of character X’s past which allows him to forgive character X for whatever perceived slight there was just before he/she died…a positive in the relationship between MC and the dead character X.

good/negative: The OS is taking place during the Civil War. The Goal is reunification of the United States. Or maybe victory in some specific battle. A Yankee soldier is the MC. The Goal is achieved thanks to his efforts allowing him to Prove himself or whatever, a good judgment, but he will never speak to his Confederate brother again.

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#6

Well Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and Thelma and Louise, both, had positive RS relationships to the end. And how about Eastern Promises and Days of Wine and Roses for the other combination. Or was this not what you were talking about? Do we need to go and look at the specific relationships story through line print out details itself?

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#7

It’s been a while since I saw the original Terminator but I think Sarah Connor and Kyle Reese ended on good terms. She still loved him, right? So I think that might be a Bad/positive example.

There’s a lot of great thinking in this thread! I love the idea of looking at the RS as both

  1. Do they end up together or apart?
  2. Do they end up on good terms or bad terms? (@HaroldLloyd 's positive / negative)
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#8

Yes! I think Days of Wine & Roses is an example of MC Judgment good with a RS “bad terms” outcome. The MC gets over his addiction & gets his kid on track but splits badly with his IC wife. So it is possible!

I haven’t seen Eastern Promises yet, but now it’s on my list.

Using my foggy memory of how they end, I think BC&SK & T&L have the usual alignment of Judgment & RS feel (in this case, I think both are Good/Positive), so they aren’t what I’m looking for.

#9

She loved him, but she was responsible for his death because she called her mother after she was told not to communicate with anybody. The Terminator took the phone call after having killed the mother. This is an interesting one.

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#10

as good leaves me scratching my head…their ends are not what I look for as good by any stretch of analysis.

#11

Eastern Promises might be an audience perception…not what I would want my husband to land into!

#12

For some reason, your mention of Days of Wine & Roses made me think of Hamlet, which could be an example of the reverse: MC bad/RS positive. Hamlet is miserable, but the relationship between him and his dad’s ghost is OK (if memory serves).

#13

Some of the Shakespeare plays that I have not read might fit. What happened to the MCs seemed too bleak to get me to pick up the play. King Lear might work. That I did see, and some great painting/drawing comes to mind, also. He is holding Cordelia who died. They were fine together at the end, if she is the ic.

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#14

“Captain America: Civil War” would be an example. The Story Judgement is Good, but the RS remains unresolved. @jhull explains, “Steve’s olive branch letter stating “I’ll be there for you” persists this problem of Faith: their friendship never resolves. Like the Avengers themselves, Steve and Tony find their personal team fractured–setting up the potential for resolution resting in the next installment of the series.”

Source: https://narrativefirst.com/analysis/captain-america-civil-war

P.S. I hope this doesn’t start another “Captain America: Civil War” debate. :grin:

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#15

Sorry to bring this topic back from the dead. :sweat: I just thought of another story with a Judgement of Good and a “negative RS outcome,” which is the “Rise of Nazism” story in “The Sound of Music.” While MC Liesl feels fulfilled by the end of the story, the RS is aptly named “Budding Romance Goes Sour.”

Sources: http://dramatica.com/analysis/the-sound-of-music-nazism
http://dramatica.com/audio/users-group-podcast/the-sound-of-music

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