"Call Me By Your Name" storyform analysis anyone? (SPOILERS)

analysis
#21

Well, never let it be said that I’m not willing to change my mind!

In retrospect I need to get better at telling the difference between “this story lacks a complete argument” and “this story made an argument that I didn’t find persuasive.” I think my resistance to the movie’s ending was that I disagreed with the judgement it reached; i.e. I didn’t see what happened between Elio and Oliver as a generally positive thing, although the film clearly implies that we should. To me, the movie would need to allow Elio to confront Oliver about his (to my eye) exploitative and manipulative behavior for me to feel satisfied that the “right” judgement was reached. I ALSO think that the OS is not as developed as it could have been: even including Elio’s parents and Marzia, we still don’t have enough characters to represent all the 64 character elements we’d expect to find in the OS, meaning that they must have left some out. In fact, the movie definitely leaves out at least one: Vimini, who I suspect served an important function of rounding out the OS argument in the book.

I really like that in the storyform I identified above, Progress is the benchmark for Elio’s throughline, which is what you initially identified as the OS goal. I think your intuition that Progress plays an important role in the storyform was correct. But here, it’s more the way we measure Elio’s progress towards his goal, rather than the goal itself.

I think the book might have the same storyform, actually, but that the final section acts as an extended author’s proof that Elio’s resolve never changes. He stays loyal to the idea/memory of his love with Oliver, and never again finds a partner who affects him in the same way. In other words, he never truly lets go of Oliver, so the story consequences of Obtaining stay in place. This proves that he remains steadfast. This is another thing that the storyform I identified makes clear: Oliver is definitely the change character. The movie leaves the nature of his change a bit vague, which to me is a weakness, although others are welcome to disagree.

#22

P.S. Vis-a-vis the timelock or optionlock thing: I was partly basing my judgement on what I remember Jim saying in a podcast episode: that characters in an optionlock story FEEL like they’re running out of time, whereas characters in a timelock story FEEL like they’re running out of options. It’s just one of the funny ways that the objective and subjective views of a story tend to mirror each other.

#23

Okay, P.P.S. because I just noticed something really interesting!

If you take a look at the storyform file I provided, you’ll notice that the story judgement can be set to either good or bad without impacting any of the other storypoints. For whatever reason, the rest of the storyform remains the same no matter which judgement was reached in the end.

Meaning it is entirely up to the author to determine what the judgement issued by this argument will be. The authors of this film chose “good,” whereas I would look at this exact same storyform and choose “bad.” This might explain why we could walk away from a movie with a complete argument, and yet differ entirely in whether we found it persuasive or not depending solely on whether we agree with the author/film’s supplied judgement. The storyform leaves room for either conclusion to be reached from the exact same presentation of events.

Wow. I kind of love Dramatica.

#24

Yes. This was the point I was making about the ambiguity. In that case, the audience is the author. They can either pick one judgment and conclude. Or in the case of many, resonate between the two in an open (and potentially endless) emotional stream, assigning meaning that’s a good ending, then the opposite, back and forth, ying-yang. So to have an impactful ending, one doesn’t need to lock it down. In fact, not locking it down makes it more beautiful and provocative as an artistic statement. And like in abstract art, the viewer/the audience creates the meaning.

In my opinion, this is designed to be ambiguous. Which is why there may be other story illustrations that offer back-up to the good judgment in addition to those that support the bad. Your point about Oliver’s betrayal supports the bad judgment. However, Oliver seems to become a person who can fully appreciate the joy and pain in his life experiences, rather than become a person who is joyless and jaded.

#25

It may seem silly in some contexts. But I’d like to point out the argument “Is it better to speak or to die” is exactly what closeted gay people have to confront in their situation. Some make the arc and choose to speak. Some have accepting parent’s, like Elio’s. Some do not and have to make other choices about their lives, like “Do I care about what they think? Do I need validation from them to live my life?” Some individuate from their parents this way. Some do not make the arc, and choose to keep the secret till their death, essentially killing something off in themselves. Others choose literal death and commit suicide. There is a lot of depth to plunge into in this argument.

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#26

BTW… I love this thread.

Is there anyone else who has seen the movie (or read the book) and who wants to chime in?

Prish, have you seen or read it yet?

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#27

Haven’t seen or read it but have been following the conversation. I’m interested in this storyform @Audz says is the same whether Good or Bad judgment. Seems like there might have been something mentioned about one storypoint (can’t remember which) that changes things below the level that you can see with the Dramatica software. I’m wondering if that’s what’s going on here or if, with those storyforms, it really just doesn’t matter if the judgment is good or bad. Fascinating stuff.

#28

Have you noticed that the Wikipedia has a plot summary? Maybe you guys can contribute to that, also?

#29

I haven’t seen the movie or read the book, yet. To tell you the truth, my psyche can only take upbeat endings but my imagination is caught by the similarity of the movie being based on a gettogether, like the other Italian movie I was telling you about of years ago. I’m trying to track it down. I might skim the book a little.

#30

To tell you the truth Gregolas, I’ve noticed this on a lot of storyforms I’ve created, in which I’ve made selections down to 2 storyforms left—one for judgment good and the other for judgment bad. I think narrowing it down, but not locking it down and allowing illustrating the thematic argument with illustrations for both sides of the argument can make for provocative stories. Ones in which people will debate, watch again and again in order to re-experience, reexamine.

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#31

Hard book to just skim, in my opinion. But go for it!

#32

I think it’s a super interesting idea to have a storyform that looks the same whether it ends in Good or Bad, and it would be neat to see a movie that 1. for sure has one of those storyforms, and 2. does actively play to both sides. I’m sure it could be done in skilled enough hands, but if I tried it, it would come out looking like my story just didn’t know how it felt about the way things ended, or couldn’t make up its mind, and leave the audience wondering what the point of it was.

I’m just trying to think through what the theory would say about using these types of storyforms that way. I mean, even if they truly are the same except for the Judgment, even below the level that Dramatica makes available, I don’t get the impression that Dramatica Theory is really saying that it doesn’t matter or that the way the characters feel should be written as ambiguous. Remember, a GAS is trying to tell its audience that it knows the best way to solve a problem (or the worst way, I guess, depending on Outcome and Judgment). So I don’t think Dramatica Theory itself would want an audience to see an argument as saying the Judgemnt doesn’t matter because the storyform would look the same regardless of which Judgment it has. I’m thinking the theory would say to write to one Judgment or the other and whether the audience sees it as good or bad is left to Audoence Reception.

Anyway, just pondering out loud, so to speak. Didn’t mean to derail the conversation with that.

#33

Yes, @Gregolas Gregolas. So it all depends on whether the author is a pessimist or optimist in regards the outcome of the story thematic conflict. This is where those DSE slide buttons come in handy as a reminder of the author’s intent. Probably the more nuanced argument would have the slider just off center to one side or the other. I noticed that a judgment has to be selected in DSE for the counterpoint to lock in. Otherwise, it says it unassigned. In this case, the counterpoint to Morality is Self-Interest in both cases of judgment good or bad.

#34

I might go with using the Wikipedia plot summary. How accurate and complete is it? I could visualize a film’s scenes with it.

#35

I haven’t seen or read the story, but I’ve been following this conversation. The part of the conversation that impacts me the most is the possibility of a well-received story using an ambiguous Good/Bad judgement, with debatable intention.

I’d like to add that having produced a number of those storyforms myself within the Dramatica program, I’ve noticed that virtually all of them that I’ve created have had different arrangements for their Variations under the PSR. Thus, from a pure logical standpoint, whether the story is Good/Bad could be left indeterminate if the subjective thematics are not explored in enough detail or in “correct” order.

Unfortunately, I’m not at home right now, otherwise I’d plug in the form given in this post and look at the PSR results for choosing Good/Bad. I wonder if there isn’t a difference at this level. Something to look at when I get home.

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#36

Very interesting point @Hunter. Would love to hear what you find. I’ll try to take a look at that too.

#37

I actually just got back and put the form in first thing. I don’t know whether the above storyform used a Timelock or Optionlock, so I examined all four possibilities. As it turns out, all four have the following PSR.

The “Signposts” under each throughline are the Types under which each PSR Variation quad resides.

Objective Story (Psychology seen as Universe)

  • Progress: Fact, Security, Threat, Fantasy
  • The Present: Attempt, Work, Attraction, Repulsion
  • The Past: Fate, Prediction, Interdiction, Destiny
  • The Future: Openness, Delay, Choice, Preconception

Subjective Story (Physics seen as Psychology)

  • Conceptualizing: State of Being, Situation, Circumstances, Sense of Self
  • Being: Knowledge, Ability, Desire, Thought
  • Becoming: Rationalization, Commitment, Responsibility, Obligation
  • Conceiving: Permission, Need, Expediency, Deficiency

Main Character (Universe seen as Physics)

  • Understanding: Instinct, Senses, Interpretation, Conditioning
  • Doing: Wisdom, Skill, Experience, Enlightenment
  • Obtaining: Approach, Self-Interest, Morality, Attitude
  • Learning: Prerequisites, Strategy, Analysis, Preconditions

Obstacle Character (Mind seen as Mind)

  • Memory: Truth, Evidence, Suspicion, Falsehood
  • The Preconscious: Value, Confidence, Worry, Worth
  • The Subconscious: Closure, Hope, Dream, Denial
  • The Conscious: Investigation, Appraisal, Reappraisal, Doubt

This is something I actually have not yet seen, but it is certainly an interesting result. I interpret this to mean that there are storyforms for which the meaning can only be made clear using appropriate illustrations at the element level, or by laying out the “Author’s Proof” for the judgement in a most candid way.

In regard to the current CMBYN discussion, this would mean that it is extremely likely the movie would feel ambiguous, if this is the correct storyform. That is, unless there is a scene at the end that “bops you on the nose” with the desired judgement.

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#38

Wow! Wild discovery @Hunter . Does this happen a lot with Dramatica storyforms? If you haven’t seen the movie, when you do in the final scene (spoiler) you will see emotions played out on the actor Timothee Chalamet’s face as he processes the joy and pain in memories of it. The being with both with killing the pain, and the joy too, is the encouragement of the father and part of the thematic argument as well. You take the bad with the good and vice versa. It’s part of the take away message of this film. And there it is embedded in the structure too. Elegant in its design isn’t it?

#39

Concerning the Good/Bad Ambiguity…
I talked about this two years ago, funnily enough. Click on this link to find out what storyform choices cause this ambiguity. It’s actually pretty simple.
That said, I think it’s possible that there are changes that we simply don’t see (like the PRCO stuff or progression stuff below the Variation level).

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What is it like to be a Holistic Problem Solver?
#40

I love this distinction, Bob, and how it illustrates how a storyform can be designed intentionally to have a certain effect on an audience.

Also… I did not know of your blog. But I do now: a great new Dramatica playground to spend time in.

Also… I only recently discovered your Dramatica Storyform on 1 Sheet tool and absolutely love it. Thank you for developing and sharing it.