Captain America Civil War Analysis - Main Character Question

This is where the chain of causes can be confusing for me: why was the bomb set? To manipulate everyone into believing the Winter Soldier was responsible. Lets say there was still a bomb, but no attempt to frame Bucky (i.e. manipulation) – what happens? Well, there would be an investigation, certainly, but no sudden escalation of the conflict between the characters in the story. So yes, the bombing is clearly an activity, but what is it other than the means to frame Bucky? If Zemo could have achieved the same result by just spreading a nasty rumour, he’d’ve done that and we’d get the same result. I’m happy with either answer, but if it’s about the source of conflict, then I need a way to distinguish between the two.

Cool. Let’s say you’re watching the movie without sound and most of what you see are people talking. Does that mean the OS cannot be in Activity or Situation but must be in Fixed Attitude or Manipulation? Are the domains are delineated by what types of movement we see on the screen (bodies moving versus mouths moving)?

Oh I see the confusion boss. As writers we are plagued with needing to know the character motivations. This is where we need to separate the two. From a structural stand point, we need not go too far down to be overwhelmed with details. Structure, while being thorough, is a broad strokes thing. Call it the skeleton if u will. The nerves, the muscle fires etc is all storytelling,which is where you excel at Sébastien. From a broad strokes perspective (using the sound method I employ) we see people fighting, then a bomb goes off, then some argument. We can infer that the argument they are having must’ve been as a result of the effects of the Bombing. As for the reasons, this is where the storyteller in you is free to create any reason u deem fit.

  1. With the sound off, it could be anything. But I like to think of the sources of conflict with these tags.
    States and Processes.
    States are : Universe and Mind. (Situation and Fixed attitudes).
    Processes are: Physics and Psychology.

Two are external and two are Internal.

Mind is an internal state. Stubbornness, dogged essay, Conviction, Prejudice etc. It could even be Madness, as it is a State, not a Process.

Psychology is an internal process. It is dynamic. Here we consider things, try to manipulate things, psyche ourselves up, think we are the shit or think poorly of ourselves. It has to do with our process of thinking.

So for example if I see an angry mob chasing a person , say zombies, in my mind I know the zombies have nothing to say, but the main characters do. They’ll have to flee often and scavenge for supplies, fight to survive. These are external processes, hence the Throughline of Physics for me.
If I keep watching and notice one character having more screen time, I’ll try to see what the context of the scenes are. Are they depressed? Happy? See how they interact. This could inform my decision of Throughline for them. For example in The Dark Horse. The MC suffers mental illness. His personal conflict cannot come from an external state. So I naturally negate the Universe domain. I think of his mental challenge and know it has to do with his mind. So I pick mind. Fortunately Dramatica deals with dynamic pairs so the other one’s the other one.

Hope this helps?

I’ll be honest, I’ve forgotten large parts of this film already, so maybe need to hush until I can watch again, but wouldn’t “setting the bomb to manipulate others” be part of the revenge plot that @jhull has mentioned? And wouldn’t “getting revenge” be an Activity, even though part of getting revenge is manipulating others? So without the manipulation of framing Bucky, the bomb is still set to get revenge.

So the problem that everyone is dealing with is the activity of Zemo trying to obtain/achieve revenge. So if he doesn’t set the bomb for manipulation, he sets it for obtaining revenge, an Activity. If he stops trying to get revenge through setting bombs, the other problems go away. Would that work?

Greg,

I think the question becomes, then, is revenge ALWAYS and ONLY activities?

Can’t you manipulate someone for revenge? (a la The count of Monte Cristo)

Or couldn’t someone’s Fixed Attitude of revenge be a story? Someone who just couldn’t let a slight go?

Or the flip side of that Someone caught in a situation of revenge (a la Fatal Attraction)?

Each of these would have activities that would be causing problem but the source of the inequity shifts as you shift domains, doesn’t it?

I was thinking the same thing and editing my post above as you posted.

First thing to note is that my previous post wasn’t supposed to be definitive, I was “talking it out” and assuming Activity per jhull’s Storyform as well as kind of asking if that’s how it should be seen.

Second, I think that revenge, as you said, can be seen in all four quads. This is where I think looking at what the story “consists of” may be helpful. Setting bombs is an activity, people getting killed is an activity, arresting people is an activity, fighting team mates is an activity. Activities (problematic ones) flow throughout for everyone.

Are there manipations that flow throughout? Or fixed attitudes? And if so , do they come from something not related to Zemo’s revenge? (I’m not just trying to make a point with this question, I’m also honestly asking).

I also think that this revenge may be in Activity because the story is about Zemo trying to obtain it and not how he is fixated on it, or how revenge is a problematic behavior for him, or how anyone is stuck in a state or revenge.

The final point to note here is that once you go below the character/problem level, things revert back to the top, Situation, Activity, Fixed Attitude, Manipulation, right? So you’ll see things that look like all of these in all four quads at some level, right?

To be clear, I’m with @decastell in that finding a storyform feels more like guesswork than an objective process a lot of the time. I’m defaulting to @jhulls storyform and trying to find where the source of the inequity is in hopes of then finding a way of definitively, objectively stating “this is why the OS is in Activity and not Fixed Attitude or another throughline”.

2 posts were split to a new topic: Domains and Throughlines of Captain America: Civil War

A post was split to a new topic: The Dark Horse: Main Character Throughline

A thought occurred to me this morning regarding this request for “steps” to correctly identify a storyform and a “coherent process.” I believe someone else mentioned storyforming felt more of a guessing game, and that perhaps these steps would help ease the discovery process.

The problem with focusing on the Prerequisites is that it makes the quality of your Analysis DEPENDENT upon the quality of those steps and the way in which they are presented in order to arrive at success. Looking for steps creates a co-dependent relationship between the analysis process and those “essential steps”.

When I suggest immersing oneself into the 300+ analyses, and the Users Group podcasts and videocasts, and the hundreds of articles and analyses I’ve written on my own site, I’m suggesting a Strategy for learning Dramatica–a strategy that worked for me and has worked for many others. Strategy and Analysis sit in a DYNAMIC pair relationship meaning they can tear each other down, OR in this case, make each other better (1+1=3).

For example, in the Mentorship Program I take students through the entire model by looking at films that share similar elements of structure. In this way, the student develops an intuitive understanding of narrative structure within the context of Dramatica. I suppose in some respects it is a juggling process–especially when it comes to balancing out four different perspectives at once–but that’s where I’ve found having that intuitive sense helps you figure out an accurate storyform quicker.

This is why I prefer discussing an overall Strategy for learning Dramatica, rather than simply listing out Prerequisites. (For those new to Dramatica, the ideas of Strategy, Analysis, and Prerequisites sit under the Concern of Gathering Information–or Learning–which is essentially what we are engaging in here. You can find a model of their relationships here: Dramatica Table of Story Elements

For the sake of clarity, I was thinking I should split this discussion up into a couple of different topics. Please try and keep comments and posts limited to the topic as best as you can. I know sometimes you might have to refer to the other topics, but at least this way it might be easier for someone to follow along and hopefully learn something about Dramatica.

This one will remain solely about the Main Character Throughline of Captain America: Civil War. The others will be:

Let me know if I have missed anything, and I’ll create new topics.

2 Likes

OK. So Main Character.

(and I’ll get back to The Dark Knight, Contender, and Serenity examples later).

In my estimation Tony Stark is the Main Character of Captain America: Civil War and his personal issues surround the guilt and responsibility he feels for creating Ultron and for killing many innocent people in Sokovia and most importantly–the guilt he feels for not saying goodbye to his parents before they were killed.

The character I believe who impacts and challenges Tony to think a different way and adopt an alternative perspective is Mr. Goody Two-Shoes Steve Rodgers (Captain America). I refer to him that way because I believe the story is specifically positioning him in a place where his Fixed Attitude impacts and challenges everyone else to reconsider their point-of-view.

I believe it his Feelings for Bucky as a friend (though occasionally it seems to border on something else. Google “shipping Bucky and Steve”…) that drives Steve’s throughline and eventually is the thing that forces Tony to stop Avoiding conflict and start Pursuing.

If you have an argument for another arrangement, please list it below and be sure to include references to where you see the Domain, how that Domain works in context of the Throughline, and the particular Problem at the core of that Throughline.

I’ll step back on this one and let others put forward their arguments for or against as I’m really keen to get your take on the issue of main characters knowing things the audience doesn’t as applied to Dark Knight, Contender, and Serenity, and I think that’ll have a strong impact on informing who the main character for Civil War is.

Actually, it would be great if you could put out your arguments for Main Character and Influence Character because that will lead into my explanation for your Dark Knight and Serenity examples.

OK so I’ll get to it. I think Cap is the MC. Tony is the IC.
Starting from the beginning, I feel the roles need to be flipped. Cap is still Fixed Attitude and Tony Situation.

Cap isn’t actively trying to get anyone to do anything. He just cares about his friend.
Tony on the other hand shows the team a digital dossier on the murdered boy I Sokovia. To influence their decision. Widow see’s the sense in his argument and immediately takes sides.

And with the theory, the IC is usually bothered with influencing the MC the most. Which is why Tony keeps going on about Cap signing the Accords at least once every act. Cap refuses, and Tony gets frustrated,and so he tries again and again. Steadfast resolve.

And with the RS being in psychology it makes sense. It has to do with Friendships. Tony and Cap predominantly. We see the downward spiral here. Cap and Bucky had no deviation or drama per se, so it isn’t so much about them.

Also for a movie so grand, we do have much more screen time with Cap. Usually it’s the IC that stays offscreen the most.

We see Tony directly influencing Spiderman. Cap was never shown trying to convince anybody. Night wing called on his behalf.

Hope this lends some clarity?

Sure, no problem. I’ll preface here by saying I’m going to include in my reasoning things that hopefully align with Dramatica principles but also things that are possibly completely irrelevant from a Dramatica point of view. This will allow for separating out the non-Dramatica considerations (or re-stating them more accurately within the Dramatica model.)

1. In this movie, MC and IC are sometimes muddled.

I’m starting here because I think it helps explain in part why there’s so much debate about this. Despite being called “Captain America: Civil War”, you could just as easily (and possibly more accurately) call it “Avengers: Civil War”. The Avengers movies, like the comics from which they’re derived, tend to be that most dastardly of things, “ensemble” stories.

In some scenes in the movie, the main character appears to be Steve Rogers: when he’s at the table seeing the footage that makes Scarlet Witch start to cry, “Enough,” he says, both troubled by what he’s seen and trying to look out for his people. We’re not watching Cap through Tony’s eyes, we’re right there along with him. The “I” is Steve Rogers. What is Tony doing here? Pressuring him to change his approach: “I can live with whatever restrictions they want to put on us. Why can’t you?”

Other times, the main character appears to be Tony: when he’s confronted by the woman who’s son died because of the Avengers. We’re seeing the story through his POV in that moment, wrestling with what Tony’s wrestling with.

So, all I’m saying here is that it sometimes appears as if the MC throughline ends up being a handoff between Steve and Tony as we varyingly switch to their POV’s. It creates confusion – not just in terms of analyzing the story, but sometimes just when watching the movie. I think this is actually intentional on the part of the Russo brothers: they want to make it difficult for us to empathize too strongly with the point of view of either character, so they obfuscate who it is by constantly switching the sense of who’s experiencing the problems first-hand and who’s pressuring the other to change the approach (i.e. “I” and “you” seem to get swapped around)

2. If I’ve got to choose, then Steve Rogers is the MC and Tony is the IC

Here are reasons, some dumb, some hopefully not:

  • We spend most of the movie with Cap, not with Tony. This is a function of pure math of onscreen time (i.e. “turn off the sound and what do you see?”)

  • Jim mentioned the idea that the audience knows what the MC knows. While I have issues with this (based on Dark Knight, Serenity, and The Contender), it seems to me that Tony keeps a lot more secrets from the audience than Steve does. Tony’s manipulated all these things in the background such as having Vision subtly hold Scarlet Witch prisoner (we don’t find this out until Vision is forced to admit it – Tony hides it from us), Tony puts together a plan to stop Steve from escaping with Bucky which we don’t know about until he suddenly ambushes them at the airport – unlike Steve who’s told us his plan to steal the Avengers quinjet to get them out of the country.

  • The movie’s called “Captain America: Civil War” and in every one of those movies, the main character has been Captain America. It ain’t called “Tony Stark: Guilty Conscience”. Of course, a filmmaker can set out to make one movie but end up making another, but having unintentionally made Tony the main character would have to be seen a colossal failure to achieve their intent. This isn’t Sherlock Holmes – we’re not watching Steve through Tony’s eyes.

(by the way, I know this is a weak point and contradicted by the whole ensemble thing, but I wanted to include it for the sake of completeness)

  • Cap isn’t trying to force Tony to change his position. He constantly says to him, “I understand why you feel that way, why you’ve made that decision. I just can’t make it with you.” It’s Tony who consistently pushes back, unwilling to accept anything less than Steve changing his approach. Isn’t this the actions of an influence character?

3. MC Domain of Activity, IC Domain of Manipulation

Let’s start with the internal/external: Steve is a do-er. I really don’t think there’s any possible way to view him other than as someone who tries to solve the problems by enacting his will on the external world. He doesn’t try to adapt to the Accords by “getting over himself” or changing how he thinks. He continues to do what’s right instead of what others try to force him to do.

My sense is that the MC is in Activities. I’m tempted to say the concern is in Doing, because Steve’s conflicts all come from the things he does: the fighting, running, helping Bucky escape . . .etc. However a strong case could be made that his overriding concern throughout the movie is to prevent Bucky from being captured and killed. We see that in most of Steve’s scenes from the moment we know Bucky’s in danger right up until the end of the movie.

The influence character through line is in Manipulation. We see Tony trying to manipulate people into choosing his side all the way through the movie (unlike Steve who often warns them that siding with him will get them in trouble.) He tries to manipulate Steve into signing the Accords with false promises (in the pen scene), he uses Spider-Man’s star-struckness to get him to join his side, he gets Vision to try and hide the fact that he’s actually holding Wanda prisoner.

If it’s Ok with you I removed the RS portion of your response and moved it to another post so we can focus the discussion to the topic at hand.

In your response you forgot to include the Problem at the core of each Throughline. This is key to understanding the relationship between the Main and Influence Character Throughlines.

In addition, your description of the Main Character Throughline:

My sense is that the MC is in Activities. I’m tempted to say the concern is in Doing, because Steve’s conflicts all come from the things he does: the fighting, running, helping Bucky escape . . .etc. However a strong case could be made that his overriding concern throughout the movie is to prevent Bucky from being captured and killed. We see that in most of Steve’s scenes from the moment we know Bucky’s in danger right up until the end of the movie.

This describes Steve’s function as an Overall Story Character.

The Main Character Throughline describes those issues unique to the Main Character that exist separate from the Overall Story throughline perspective. Steve is not the only one fighting, running, or dealing with Bucky, etc.

What personal baggage does Steve have that he could carry with him into any other story and how are these uniquely related to Activities and related to him alone?

The influence character through line is in Manipulation. We see Tony trying to manipulate people into choosing his side all the way through the movie (unlike Steve who often warns them that siding with him will get them in trouble.) He tries to manipulate Steve into signing the Accords with false promises (in the pen scene), he uses Spider-Man’s star-struckness to get him to join his side, he gets Vision to try and hide the fact that he’s actually holding Wanda prisoner.

This describes Tony’s function as an Overall Story Character.

The Influence Character Throughline presents a problematic alternative approach that challenges or impacts the Main Character to reconsider his or perspective. These can be through direct, or indirect manipulation that either influences the Main Character or influences people around the Main Character.

How do Tony’s attempts to manipulate specifically impact or challenge Steve to reconsider his point-of-view? What kind of problematic conflict arises in Steve or in the others because these manipulations?

Lastly, a Concern of Doing in the Main Character Throughline suggests a Concern of Playing a Role in the Influence Character Throughline. How do Tony’s manipulations specifically impact and challenge concerns with Being?

Okay, I’ll bite.

I think ZEMO is both protagonist AND Impact character.

He is the one affecting everyone else by manipulating them, by implicating Bucky and exposing him as Tony’s parents murderer.

He’s pushing Tony’s Buttons (and by extension Tony’s team)
He’s pushing Cap’s Buttons (and by extension Steve’s team)
He’s pushing Bucky’s Buttons
He’s pushing T’Challa’s buttons
He disrupts the accords
He murders willy-nilly, anyone and everyone is expendable
But ultimately he explains it to T’Challa, I couldn’t go toe to toe with the Avengers, all I could do was break them apart.

I still think Steve is the Antagonist trying to keep the status quo of with great power comes great responsibility and you can’t surrender your judgment or responsibility to anyone else. (I supposed you could make an argument that he is the impact character, because he’s the one pushing back against Tony.)

I think Tony is the MC: his is where the emotional heart is, and (TO ME) the thematic heart which is as I said before

Throughline wise I see it this way.

OS: Manipulation (Everyone is dealing with the fallout of Zemos revenge)
MC: Situation Tony is drowning in his own guilt and is looking for an external solution that will absolve him of his guilt. With his creation of ULTRON he IS the winter soldier, only worse because his hubris killed so many, he doesn’t have Bucky’s rational of not having a choice.
IC Fixed Attitude: If it’s Zemo, the bastards must pay. If it’s Cap, one cannot give up their autonomy, you have to follow your own conscience not someone else’s.
RS: Activities Tony vs Cap You bring yours and I’ll bring mine, let’s dance. (Big people hitting each other) Seriously, you could have left everyone else out of the airport fight and the effect would have been the same emotional note.

Anyway, that’s my take.

Forgot this one.

I never once said Steve was trying to “force” Tony to change his position, only that his particular problematic attitude impacted and challenged Tony’s drive to Avoid conflict.

The Influence Character’s impact does not have to be direct. But it does need to specifically target the Main Character’s Personal problem.

Okay, I’ll try to address your points and the missing points you identified in my argument here.

Only if you presuppose that the OS is the hunt for the Winter Soldier, which you do in your argument, but I don’t take that position. I believe the OS is the Civil War itself: the choosing of sides over whether to live under new rules or not and the way that puts all the characters in conflict with each other.

Surely this isn’t strictly true, is it? In The Fugitive, the Dramatical analysis is that the domain of Activities comes from “Dr. Kimble is tracking down the murderer(s) of his wife”. This puts him at odds with the killer and with any number of people along the way. Wouldn’t you’d agree that what distinguishes the MC from the OS in The Fugitive is that, really, Kimble is the only one who actually cares about finding the real killer?

In Civil War, the MC throughline is that Cap is trying to protect Bucky. Yes, other people are working against that, but only Cap’s problems come from the effort to protect him. Other people come along for the ride at times out of loyalty to Cap, but no one ever says, “I, too, am determined to protect Bucky.” To the contrary, they’re only concern is looking after Cap as he gets into trouble because of his activities. The people opposing cap aren’t concerned with protecting Bucky either. They’re concerned with enforcing the law. Tony is sent to stop Cap not because he believes Bucky is guilty but because Cap is getting involved in something he has no business interfering with given the new rules of the Accords.

Doesn’t this language: “personal baggage” imply that the MC would always have to be internal? The Fugitive’s MC domain of activities being “Dr. Kimble is tracking down the murderer(s) of his wife.” wouldn’t carry over into another story unless it was another story in which his wife is murdered. Similarly, Cap’s MC domain of activities being “Steve Rogers is trying to protect his oldest friend from capture” could apply to any story in which, for whatever reason, someone wants to capture or kill Bucky.

I thought I effectively addressed this with the example of the pen story: Tony tries to convince Cap to sign onto the Accords with promises that “we can fix the problems later – Just sign it for now, trust me.” He gives him the nostalgic pen story, trying to get Steve to ignore his conscience and instead play on the temptation to get out of trouble by signing. At the last moment, Cap sees through the manipulation, using the act of handing him back the pen to show him he won’t be bought with false promises and attempts to get him to ignore his conscience. [Note: as I mentioned earlier, I’m not sure if the MC is in Doing or in Obtaining, and here I’m using Obtaining as the MC concern: preventing Bucky’s capture.]

As another example, Tony’s manipulation of Vision and Wanda – with him getting Vision to act as her jailor while pretending he’s just spending time with her – creates a rift in their otherwise growing relationship.

Per the above, I think the MC concern could be Obtaining (preventing the capture of his oldest friend), and thus the IC concern would be Changing One’s Nature. One of the aspects of changing one’s nature (per the Dramatica dictionary) is “giving up a part of oneself”. That’s what Tony is pushing Steve to do: give up his most defining aspect – his unerring drive to do what he believes is right regardless of the consequence. You mentioned Steve’s “do-gooder” approach. Throughout the movie Steve talks about that in terms of his conscience: “I just couldn’t live with myself if I didn’t do what I think is right”

I understand completely that the IC’s impact doesn’t have to be direct, but in this case I think Tony’s is both direct and explicit: he’s trying to manipulate Steve into not following his conscience, but instead giving into the temptation of just signing the Accords so he won’t have to deal with the consequences of fighting the new rules.

Lastly:

Identifying the problem at the core of each throughline requires drilling down quite deep, and I’m not sure I’m able to do that with precision given I’m still wrestling with effectively excluding possible domains from a particular throughline. That said, here’s what teases out from my points above:

MC Resolve: Steadfast
MC Problem: Conscience

Steve’s drive comes from his conscience. This is true in the first movie, the second, and the third. It’s the defining quality of Captain America and why he’s always considered the moral authority of the Avengers. He explicitly states throughout the movie that he can’t stop following his conscience no matter how tempted he is to give that up.

IC Problem: Logic
IC Solution: Feeling

Tony’s massive frustration throughout the movie is that Steve can’t seem to see the obvious: of course the Avengers need reining in. Who cares what moral principles they have to give up if it reduces the possible casualties by just one person? Tony is a futurist and an engineer and this is pure math: count the number of lives saved.

At the end of the movie (the end of the OS, anyway), Tony arrives at the secret prison where the Avengers are being held. While he’s seen some evidence that maybe Cap was right about Bucky’s innocence, it’s doesn’t alter the fact that he still logically thinks the Accords are the right way to go. Nonetheless, he ignores that logic and goes with his gut, telling Falcon he’s going to help Steve regardless of everything that’s happened.

By the way, I realize it can become a bit of a moving target if in one post I’m arguing for Doing as the MC concern and then switch to Obtaining. It’s not coming strictly from flakiness, I promise, but rather from trying to refine the argument based on the counter-points you’ve raised.

That’s the best part about the theory—Dramatica forces you to make a coherent and consistent argument. As you’re seeing, it’s really easy to say “all the conflict comes from their impulsive responses” because you’re only telling one side of the story. As you begin to try and narrow down the other perspectives, you’re bouncing around to different, incongruent areas that don’t hold up with your original argument.

Problematic Consciences and Problematic Rationale do not tie in naturally with the Preconscious. That filter of the mind where the Preconscious operates cares little about abstaining for fear of consequences or what is the most logical, or rational choice.

In our minds we can come up and justify all kinds of great examples for where we think the conflict is coming from, but when we actually sit down and try to frame that conflict within a structural narrative that tells a complete and coherent argument, we often have to rectify our assumptions with reality.

Part of the purpose of narrative is to show us what conflict looks like from different perspectives. One of the ways narrative does this is through the different perspectives of the Main Character and Overall Story Throughlines.

Many writers new to Dramatica experience difficulty separating the Main Character Throughline from the Overall Story Throughline, particularly if they’re used to blending the two together. Typically, this plays out in conversations about “Heroes” or “Villains” or notions that a Protagonist is a Main Character is a Point-of-View Character.

The same way its important to find a relationship that exists outside of any relationship within the Overall Story Throughline when trying to determine the Relationship Story Throughline perspective, its also important to find a Main Character personal issues that exists outside of anything seen from a They perspective.

In The Fugitive, the Dramatica analysis is that the domain of Activities comes from “Dr. Kimble is tracking down the murderer(s) of his wife”. This puts him at odds with the killer and with any number of people along the way. Wouldn’t you’d agree that what distinguishes the MC from the OS in The Fugitive is that, really, Kimble is the only one who actually cares about finding the real killer?

No, because caring does not create problems for him personally, tracking down the murderer does.

No one else in the story is tracking down the murderer. Kimble is uniquely positioned as the only one experiencing conflict through this very specific activity of “finding that man.”

From an overall story perspective, we do see an innocent man convicted of a crime he didn’t commit and all the conflict They experience comes from that Situation.

Tracking down a murderer is a different perspective than an innocent man convicted of a crime. He puts himself and only himself in danger by engaging in these activities.

That’s a personal problem.

In Civil War, the MC throughline is that Cap is trying to protect Bucky.

Cap trying to protect specifically requires beating the crap out of German police officers doing their job, engaging in car chases that endanger innocent bystanders, and fighting Iron Man personally at the end.

That’s not a personal problem, but rather a problem that They have to deal with.

Furthermore, there is no personal justification for these actions presented in the film that I can remember. Besides the obvious love he has for Bucky, I’m not sure the justification and or backstory that would warrant a Main Character Throughline perspective.

Tony, on the other hand, starts out describing in exact detail why he is driven to avoid conflict. It’s personal, it’s unique to him, and it is completely separate from the Overall Story Throughline perspective in that the conflict experienced there is his and his alone to deal with.

The people opposing cap aren’t concerned with protecting Bucky either. They’re concerned with enforcing the law.

Enforcing the law is an Activity.

Tony is sent to stop Cap not because he believes Bucky is guilty but because Cap is getting involved in something he has no business interfering with given the new rules of the Accords.

Interfering and trying to stop someone are both Activities and exemplify conflict for everyone. Therefore They.

Doesn’t this language: “personal baggage” imply that the MC would always have to be internal?

No, just that the personal justifications and reasons for the behavior need to somehow be contained within the narrative presented to us. That’s what is meant by personal baggage.

The Fugitive’s MC domain of activities being “Dr. Kimble is tracking down the murderer(s) of his wife.” wouldn’t carry over into another story unless it was another story in which his wife is murdered.

His wife being murdered does not create conflict for everyone in the story. It only creates conflict for him. Being convicted of a crime he didn’t commit does involve everyone in the story and therefore is seen as Overall Story Throughline material.

Main Character is not a character in Dramatica. Main Character is a perspective.

Similarly, Cap’s MC domain of activities being “Steve Rogers is trying to protect his oldest friend from capture” could apply to any story in which, for whatever reason, someone wants to capture or kill Bucky.

OK. So now you’re talking about setting up justification for another story, that’s great. We’re not talking about another story, we’re talking about this one. What is the personal justification for Steve’s behavior? How is it shown to us in this film? How is it uniquely problematic to Steve alone?

I thought I effectively addressed this with the example of the pen story: Tony tries to convince Cap to sign onto the Accords with promises that “we can fix the problems later – Just sign it for now, trust me.” He gives him the nostalgic pen story, trying to get Steve to ignore his conscience and instead play on the temptation to get out of trouble by signing.

I’m not even sure this could be considered problematic from an Influence Character Throughline perspective. Rather, it sounds more like an indicator of problems within their relationship. Isn’t the pen something to do with their friendship?

Russo explains:

The pens were an idea that he[Robert] brought to the scene as a way to represent what was going on between Cap and Tony in the scene.

And the idea that Steve knew his father personally, which plays into their relationship as friends.

For the actions of a character to be considered as coming from the perspective of an Influence Character Throughline it needs to present some alternative approach to solving problems. An alternative approach that impacts and challenges and creates problems for those in and around Tony.

I’m not sure how Tony’s manipulations specifically impact and challenge those around him, especially Steve. I see that working within their relationship for sure.

Steve’s attitude on the other hand drives everyone crazy and there’s no way he’s backing down. Tony, on the other hand, stops impacting through problematic manipulations the moment he’s not around Steve.

As another example, Tony’s manipulation of Vision and Wanda – with him getting Vision to act as her jailor while pretending he’s just spending time with her – creates a rift in their otherwise growing relationship.

How does this impact Steve to change his point-of-view?

If anything, it describes another instance of problematic manipulations within a relationship and could possibly be crosstalk from the original storyform played out with other characters.

Remember - the Throughlines are perspectives, not characters, and not relationships.

Just a few more notes:

Steve’s drive comes from his conscience. This is true in the first movie, the second, and the third. It’s the defining quality of Captain America and why he’s always considered the moral authority of the Avengers. He explicitly states throughout the movie that he can’t stop following his conscience no matter how tempted he is to give that up.

Its important, when finding the narrative of a piece, to focus on the piece itself and not extraneous information. If the understanding of a narrative requires knowledge of previous stories, then that narrative will come across incomplete and deficient for those new to the escapades of the characters.

While he’s seen some evidence that maybe Cap was right about Bucky’s innocence, it’s doesn’t alter the fact that he still logically thinks the Accords are the right way to go.

Logically thinking the Accords are the right way is not the same thing as having problems of Logic. This is the same problem before where the Appreciation is seen as an indicator of storytelling, rather than an indicator of an inequity requiring resolution.

Furthermore for this to be an Influence Character Problem, that would mean Tony’s problematic influence that challenges Steve to rethink his ways would be some sort of rationale for a dysfunctional or manipulative way of thinking. And this rationale would somehow challenge Steve’s abstaining for fear of future consequences…?

And then to bring it back around to creating a coherent and concise argument. If Tony was motivated by Logic and he was the Change character, that would mean all the problems by everyone in the story would come from Logic. And if they just stopped being logical there would be no conflict. And everyone would either be concerned with problematic Desires (Subconscious) or their friendship would be about their problematic Desires for each other.

I didn’t see that movie.

1 Like

Reading through your response a few times, I have the sense that you’ve addressed all my points effectively within the Dramatica model. The fact that I still don’t get it is a reflection of my own brain not being able to reconcile it rather than stemming from a disagreement where me harping on it will benefit anyone else.

Just for the sake of thoroughness and as a way to put an endpoint on my back-and-forth here, I want to query a couple of your points here where I think my question/confusion might be helpful to others as well.

I can’t disagree with this . . . because I don’t understand it. We’re now into language that’s so specific (even idiosyncratic) to Dramatica that I simply can’t parse the two sentences. I’ll point out the specific terms that confuse me because there may be others who’ll also benefit from clarification.

I hope this doesn’t come across as obtuse, but I’m genuinely having difficulty parsing these terms:

"Problematic Consciences and Problematic Rationale"
Okay, problematic as in, creating what Dramatica deems as problems within the story structure? I’m assuming as opposed to problematic in a broader sense? Drunken driving is almost always a problem in the real world, but might not be in a particular Dramatica storyform.

Conscience is a Dramatica element, but Rationale is not. So I’m not sure how to interpret those terms in this context.

"do not tie in naturally with the Preconscious"
You’ve got naturally and Preconscious in the same clause here, but while I get Preconscious as being the old Dramatica term for Impulsive Responses (I think), I’m not sure what you mean by naturally.

Do you mean of the story mind? Because otherwise we’re talking about actual psychology here, which is a science, and declarative rules about how the actual human mind operates need to come from empirical evidence, not a model of story. In other words, if “the filter of the mind” you’re referring to is a concept within Dramatica, great, but if it’s a statement about how the actual human mind works then I’ve got to get off the bus, so to speak.

Okay, I’m interpreting this as saying that fear of consequences or logic or reason are notions that don’t exist within the context of Preconscious or Impulsive responses – they’re more like higher-order thought process that require reflection and thus don’t fit within the much narrower world of our impulsive reactions.

Is that correct?

I’m not sure what you mean by reality here – do you mean the logical interpretation of what’s in the movie (ex: “The aliens of Theta 7 don’t use teleportation so we can’t consider teleporting the bomb away as a solution”) or “reality” in terms of our world (ex: “It’s not realistic to believe that ISIS would all suddenly convert to Christianity”)?

This makes sense, I think. Would I be correct in paraphrasing this as, “the fact that Kimble cares about who killed his wife is his motivation, but it’s not what creates problems for him in the movie – it’s the physical activity of tracking down the murderer.”

Here’s my question: let’s say in the Director’s Cut of the movie, we have two scenes in which Kimble’s lawyer is separately trying to track down the real killer which puts his life in danger. Would that mean the Director’s Cut had a different storyform than the theatrical cut because Kimble is no longer “the only one experiencing conflict through this very specific activity of ‘finding that man’”?

So is this a quantity/proportion issue? Because I’m sure we could find a scene in the Fugitive where, let’s say, Kimble’s activity in trying to hunt down the murderer ends up adversely affecting someone else. I’m not quibbling with your assessment, just wondering if this idea of only the main character having problems caused by the MC domain must be absolutely true or just broadly true.

Why wouldn’t his loyalty to Bucky be enough to justify his actions? It’s clear in the movie that in their backstory, Bucky died saving Cap, and would have done so again and again. These guys aren’t just fellow soldiers with a crush on each other – all through Steve’s troubled youth Bucky stuck up for him, and Cap will always stick up for Bucky now.

I agree with the last line, but I’m not sure what your point is here? Why does Enforcing the Law being an Activity negate what I wrote?

Just to be clear, I brought up the MC domain as being applicable to other stories specifically because in your previous post you said that for the MC throughline to be correct (e.g. “Cap is trying to protect his oldest friend”) it would have to be possible to pull it out of the current movie and put it in a different one. That’s why I wrote that: The Fugitive’s MC domain of activities being “Dr. Kimble is tracking down the murderer(s) of his wife.” wouldn’t carry over into another story unless it was another story in which his wife is murdered.

I was responding directly to your earlier point, not trying to deviate into concocting other stories.

Steve’s drive coming from his conscience comes up in this_ movie. His moral authority among the other Avengers is why it’s so important for Tony to try to convert him to his side. Notice that Tony doesn’t bother trying to convince Hawkeye or Wanda or Falcon. He has to try to convert Steve because he’s the one everybody tends to follow.

That aside, I’m really interested in what you said about “If the understanding of a narrative requires knowledge of previous stories, then that narrative will come across incomplete and deficient for those new to the escapades of the characters.” This movie is Captain America 3. It’s not just a random sit-com style episode of the Cap show – it’s presumed (I think, anyway) that the audience has seen the first and second in the same way that people watching Spider-Man 2 were assumed to have seen the first one.

So does this rule about internal completeness within the individual movie apply even if we’re watching, say, “The Return of the King”? Does it also apply to episodes of a TV show? I’m not asking rhetorically by the way – I’m really curious.

Could you tease this paragraph out a bit? I’m not quite able to parse it. Specifically, why is the idea that one has a problem of relying on the logic of the Accords not the same thing as having a problem of Logic?

And are you saying that the Appreciation needs to be an indicator of an inequity requiring resolution? If so, what does that mean?

A couple of things confuse me in this paragraph: 1) you reference Tony’s motivation but I thought character motivation was specifically something that shouldn’t be used as the basis for a domain problem. 2) You’re saying here that if the OS problem is logic, then the solution would have to be for everyone to stop being logical. But isn’t the dynamic pair of Logic, “Feelings”? And isn’t “Feelings” different from “not Logic”? In other words, what if the problem/solution is: “Everyone is following the logical course despite the way its creating problems for them, so what they need to do is start listening to their feelings instead.”


Lastly, I’m still dying to hear your thoughts on why Serenity, Dark Knight, and especially The Contender don’t violate the rule you gave for Civil War that the Main Character categorically cannot be someone who knows something the audience doesn’t.

I will. I needed to develop a foundation of understanding the Main Character Throughline as a perspective, not a character first. Hopefully, that is well established now. Dramatica is so complex and so precise that many take comments and story endings literally, instead of understanding them within the context of the Dramatica model.

Oh, and yes. EVERYTHING I do is within context of Dramatica and its model of narrative. That’s why, I suppose, everyone is here, and therefore what I endeavor to teach and communicate day in and day out. It’s also the reason why I’m so quick to boot those who want to create their own version of Dramatica. The internet is big enough that they can go do it somewhere else—making it easier to communicate what the theory is, rather than what it isn’t.

Reading through your response a few times, I have the sense that you’ve addressed all my points effectively within the Dramatica model.

Excellent! That’s all I’m here to do.

In other words, if “the filter of the mind” you’re referring to is a concept within Dramatica, great, but if it’s a statement about how the actual human mind works then I’ve got to get off the bus, so to speak.

Dramatica is a theory based on how the mind works. If you don’t buy this concept, then you don’t buy the theory. It’s one of the givens of the theory.

In regards to Conscience and Logic not tying in “naturally” with the Preconscious, I mean quite literally that those elements do not fit within the context of problematic Impulsive Responses.

Drunken driving is almost always a problem in the real world

It’s only a problem in narrative if it is specifically made a problem in that story. Stories are not the real world. You could write many stories where drunk driving is a benefit to a society. You might not find a lot of readers, but you can certainly do it.

That’s another great thing about looking at story through the eyes of Dramatica–you’re not beholden to any value systems. You’re free to tell the story you want to tell–as long as you stay consistent.

Conscience is a Dramatica element, but Rationale is not. So I’m not sure how to interpret those terms in this context.

A problem of Logic means there is an element of rational thinking creating conflict. I gist-ed Logic to fit within the context of the concept I was trying to teach.

This again goes back to the idea of using the story appreciations as storytelling, rather than sources of conflict. It’s not that someone is driven by logic to tell people what is right and wrong, it’s that their logical approach, their rationale, creates conflict.

So when it comes to problems of the Preconscious–which is what a Concern of Preconscious, or Impulsive Responses, is all about, Conscience and Logic quite literally do not fit in. “Gagging at the thought of eating oysters” while silly, probably illustrates the problems of the Preconscious best. Someone motivated to do that is not motivated by their Conscience, nor by Logic. That’s why I say those two don’t naturally coincide with a Concern of Impulsive Responses.

Okay, I’m interpreting this as saying that fear of consequences or logic or reason are notions that don’t exist within the context of Preconscious or Impulsive responses – they’re more like higher-order thought process that require reflection and thus don’t fit within the much narrower world of our impulsive reactions.

Exactly!

I’m not sure what you mean by reality here – do you mean the logical interpretation of what’s in the movie (ex: “The aliens of Theta 7 don’t use teleportation so we can’t consider teleporting the bomb away as a solution”) or “reality” in terms of our world (ex: “It’s not realistic to believe that ISIS would all suddenly convert to Christianity”)?

Whether we write stories or analyze stories, where we assume the conflict is or where the consistent arrangement of perspectives lie, often fails to hold up under closer scrutiny. The storyforming process forces us to be objective about what was once a very subjective experience–making up stories in our own heads and interpreting the events of those stories in our own heads.

Dramatica won’t let you make an inconsistent or incoherent argument all around. You can make arguments for one perspective and one concern, but once you try and make them all at once from a consistent and objective point-of-view, those things you thought were there, only looked that way because in your mind you can shift context all the time. That’s how we survive in our day-to-day lives and why we do the things we do (again, this is from Dramatica’s concept of the Storymind–the idea that we use justification and problem-solving throughout our own experience).

In Dramatica, you can’t constantly shift context. You set the context and that’s it.

This is why writers new to Dramatica run into this problem where they can’t fit their story into the program. The storyform tells them there is something wrong with their story (really, something inconsistent), the writers don’t like the idea that what they thought was awesome in their head doesn’t play out in the final result, so they toss Dramatica aside and decide it’s not for them.

Storyforming with Dramatica is a process of moving away from the subjective inconsistencies in our own minds towards an objective consistent context so that we can tell a coherent and complete argument.

(And I’m pretty sure I’m going to have to explain that a couple more times, because I’m not sure how I did!)

Would I be correct in paraphrasing this as, “the fact that Kimble cares about who killed his wife is his motivation, but it’s not what creates problems for him in the movie – it’s the physical activity of tracking down the murderer.”

Totally.

Here’s my question: let’s say in the Director’s Cut of the movie, we have two scenes in which Kimble’s lawyer is separately trying to track down the real killer which puts his life in danger. Would that mean the Director’s Cut had a different storyform than the theatrical cut because Kimble is no longer “the only one experiencing conflict through this very specific activity of ‘finding that man’”?

I guess. But that wasn’t the movie that was presented. If that scene was shot, they likely cut it out because it doesn’t make sense whatsoever given the final storyform of the movie.

Theoretically, people can’t help but write a complete story (a consistent storyform). They write and re-write, shoot and re-shoot, edit and re-edit, until they have something that holds up together (in other words, tells a complete argument from all four perspectives). Sometimes, mistakes slip by–stories aren’t perfect–but for the most part, when a story works, it is held together by the storyform.

One thing I have learned from all this is the language surrounding “Author’s Intent”. Usually, we describe the storyform as indicating Author’s Intent, as if this is exactly what the Author was trying to say.

After this discussion, I think it’s more accurate to say that this is the message that was presented–whether the Author meant it or not.

Take my reference above to “shipping Steve and Bucky.” For those who don’t know (and I didn’t until a year or two ago), “shipping” is apparently the process of creating a realtion-SHIP between two characters that the original text failed to address.

I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the Russo’s intention to motivate a segment of the Internet population to write and draw various romantic encounters between Steve and Bucky, yet for some reason these fans were motivated to do so.

I would say this is because of the Influence Character Problem of Feeling. The storyform of the film–the storyform that ended up on-screen and presented to the Audience–places Steve in a place where his attitude his motivated specifically by Feelings. Whether or not they meant to or not, this is the message communicated and one many took too. You can Google “shipping Steve and Bucky” and see all kinds of interesting things. If you Google “Iron Man’s logic” or “Tony’s rationale” you won’t find anything close in number.

I’ve worked on productions where the Audience “ships” characters that were never intended to be that way, and if I recall correctly you, Sebastien, might have had the same experience. This was never their or your intent, but the storyform of the film, the message of the film is there once a mind (a Storymind) begins to put the pieces together.

So, I think no longer thinking of the storyform as representing Author’s Intent and instead thinking of it as the actual storyform communicated makes more sense.

So is this a quantity/proportion issue? Because I’m sure we could find a scene in the Fugitive where, let’s say, Kimble’s activity in trying to hunt down the murderer ends up adversely affecting someone else. I’m not quibbling with your assessment, just wondering if this idea of only the main character having problems caused by the MC domain must be absolutely true or just broadly true.

Theoretically the entire story happens all at once (because it all happens in the mind). So the idea is yes, you have a holistic understanding of the entire Throughline all at once. I believe it’s both a quantity and proportion issues as much as it is a qualitative issue. No story is perfect–but there will be enough of something that the Audience will naturally begin to put pieces together into a storyform (assuming you buy the Storymind concept).

Why wouldn’t his loyalty to Bucky be enough to justify his actions? It’s clear in the movie that in their backstory, Bucky died saving Cap, and would have done so again and again. These guys aren’t just fellow soldiers with a crush on each other – all through Steve’s troubled youth Bucky stuck up for him, and Cap will always stick up for Bucky now.

I get all of that, but see that as playing out through his Influence Character Throughline of Fixed Attitude (sticking up for Bucky), Innermost Desires (loyalty), Hope (his whole 50’s mentality), and Feeling (the crush).

By personal justification, I mean some kind of personal problem there, some personal conflict. I don’t see how that stands out from what everyone else is doing.

Seb. Says: The people opposing cap aren’t concerned with protecting Bucky either. They’re concerned with enforcing the law.
Jim Says: Enforcing the law is an Activity.
Seb. Says: I agree with the last line, but I’m not sure what your point is here? Why does Enforcing the Law being an Activity negate what I wrote?

Just trying to show how everyone is involved with problematic activities, not just Steve. Steve protects Bucky, others enforce the law - those are forces on both sides of the same kind of problematic Activity, within the context of this story.

Just to be clear, I brought up the MC domain as being applicable to other stories specifically because in your previous post you said that for the MC throughline to be correct (e.g. “Cap is trying to protect his oldest friend”) it would have to be possible to pull it out of the current movie and put it in a different one. That’s why I wrote that: The Fugitive’s MC domain of activities being “Dr. Kimble is tracking down the murderer(s) of his wife.” wouldn’t carry over into another story unless it was another story in which his wife is murdered.

Right, because “tracking down the murderer of his wife” requires his wife to be dead. That is his personal baggage as defined within the context of his Main Character Throughline.

I was responding directly to your earlier point, not trying to deviate into concocting other stories.

I was just trying to point out that it’s important to focus on the story told, or presented, when trying to figure out the storyform. Also, when it comes to writing, figuring out the storyform you’re presenting, rather than the one you hope you’re presenting.

Can save you a lot of grief when it comes to shipping!

This movie is Captain America 3. It’s not just a random sit-com style episode of the Cap show – it’s presumed (I think, anyway) that the audience has seen the first and second in the same way that people watching Spider-Man 2 were assumed to have seen the first one.

A Dramatica storyform is an objectified meaning of the story as presented from beginning to end. Where you start and end that story matters. The storyform for an entire series is different than the storyform for a season in that series and is different for storyform for an episode within that season.

You set the scope of a narrative by determining the start point and end point (Drivers) and a limit for the events within (Story Limit).

Return of the King has several different storyforms going on–different MC/IC, etc. Overall I’m sure there is one storyform to rule them all (the entire trilogy) but that will be a project for another day…

Could you tease this paragraph out a bit? I’m not quite able to parse it. Specifically, why is the idea that one has a problem of relying on the logic of the Accords not the same thing as having a problem of Logic?
And are you saying that the Appreciation needs to be an indicator of an inequity requiring resolution?

100% yes!

Every single appreciation is an indicator of inequity requiring resolution. Domain, Concern, Issue, and Problem are all really just inequities with fancy names to indicate their “size” within a narrative.

Contrast these two in terms of Logic:

  • the logic behind building a wall between the U.S. and Mexico doesn’t make sense. It will just cause more problems
  • Some think that if you build a wall tall enough and long enough then you’ll protect innocent civilians from the terrorists

The latter introduces an inequity into the conversation requiring some kind of resolution. The former is just a statement, or opinion. One motivates a story, the other just sits there.

A couple of things confuse me in this paragraph: 1) you reference Tony’s motivation but I thought character motivation was specifically something that shouldn’t be used as the basis for a domain problem. 2) You’re saying here that if the OS problem is logic, then the solution would have to be for everyone to stop being logical. But isn’t the dynamic pair of Logic, “Feelings”? And isn’t “Feelings” different from “not Logic”? In other words, what if the problem/solution is: “Everyone is following the logical course despite the way its creating problems for them, so what they need to do is start listening to their feelings instead.”

Hopefully, you now see how “following the logical course” is not the same thing as Logic as an indicator of inequity.

And yes, I would agree that if Logic were the Problem then Feeling would be the Solution, but for the sake of the conversation I was focusing on getting rid of the inequity - as in “if they stopped being logical” because being logical would have to be an inequity in a story driven by Logic.

In regards to 1), what I meant was that the Changed character shares the same Problem and Solution as the Overall Story Throughline – that’s what ties them meaningfully into the argument of the narrative. The Problem of a Throughline is the basis for a Domain “Problem” as it describes the finest most precise bit of detail to which one can describe the inequity.

As for Dark Knight and Contender and Serenity, I haven’t seen the last so I’m not sure but as far as the others go–

The biggest problem here is taking statements literally instead of understanding the comments within the context of the Dramatica narrative model. This is why I wanted to make sure there was an understanding of the Main Character as a perspective, and a perspective towards an inequity. Anything that supports that inequity functions as a means of better telling that point-of-view.

When I say, from a Main Character Throughline perspective, I know what I know–this is within the context of the Throughline. I’ve already written about it in my Throughline analysis of the Civil War which I will publish next week, but in short:

Steve Rogers, Captain America, withholds key information that pertains directly to Tony’s personal issues. I know everything I need to know to generate my personal perspective of I. Tony’s personal issues of guilt shift with knowledge of the secret, making his unawareness of this information key to understanding the meaning of his point-of-view.
In other words, the fact that he doesn’t know something that could alleviate his guilt is why he represents the I point-of-view.

In The Dark Knight, Batman struggles between being the hero or being the villain. Illegally tapping cellphones supports this perspective of doing something wrong. In other words, there are plenty of things that I have done in my life that I don’t want anyone to know about, and I will do anything to keep them secret–including keeping them from myself–because they’re “bad”.

The film supports this perspective. Instead of watching Batman setup the cellphones and the listening devices which might encourage an acceptance of such actions, he does them off screen and there’s a bit of shame felt when Fox calls him out for it. This plays into the whole issue over doing things a hero or villain would do.

It plays into the perspective of inequity as seen from the Main Character point-of-view.

The Contender works the same way. She’s withholding that information on principle because that’s what Be-ers do. The Be-er aspect is part of her perspective. The idea that anyone would even conceive of her doing these things is so offensive that she won’t even do the one thing that could end it all. Her Issues of Deficiency and that drive of Re-evaluation motivates the holding of that secret and her refusal to address the allegations. The reveal supports that first-person perspective of dealing with conflict like this. As far as she is concerned–from her perspective–she shouldn’t have to face these questions in the first place.

So it’s not a literal interpretation of I, but rather an understanding of I as a point-of-view on inequity and conflict resolution. I know what I know–in order to communicate my inequitable perspective.