Infinity war pt1

Just saw Infinity war. Very interesting film.

More shocking is the angle the Russo brothers took. Can’t believe it though; Thanos is the MC!!!
Weird but true.

Still need to figure out the storyform. It’s mostly OS though.

Great movie none the less.


I’ve been waiting patiently for this thread… I predict that this will be the one that breaks Jim once and for all. :joy:

It’s been about a week since I’ve seen it, but there’s so much going on that I don’t even know where to begin. I’ll need to rewatch before even attempting to dissect this thing.

But 100%, Thanos is MC and protagonist. No question about that. Pretty bold move.

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Yes! Left out the Protagonist part on purpose. LOL. And it makes sense ( Dramatica-wise). And as with all things Dramatica, it can go either way in the spectrum. This makes Thanos the Anti-Hero.




Yup @jhay you got it!

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I hadn’t even considered Thanos an anti-hero, but I suppose he is! After a certain point, I was empathising with him more than I’d care to admit…

Also: the clearest story goal in the history of story goals. Just gonna put that out there. Story Limit, too. So clear that they’re in the dang trailers.

I’m just gonna stop talking now and go see it again.

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Same thing here! He’s definitely the protagonist in the Dramatica sense as well as the MC. I couldn’t quite figure out who the IC was, though, unless it is everyone?

I just came back from seeing it, and I was thinking about this on the ride home. But now that I see it, I have to agree. Which makes it even worse (emotionally) for me.

I think there were quite a few IC handoffs. But it got so muddled because they tried to bring in literally everyone that has ever been in a Marvel movie. But off the top of my head, I would say Thor, Stark, Strange, and Gamora, with Strange being the clearest Change of the ICs.


He’s definitely the Anti-hero. For me throughlines are different to what should be expected.

MC(Thanos): Psychology, with concern of Becoming. His personal issue is his manner of thinking. On KTAD its his desire that drives him.

OS: Universe, with concern of the Future. Everyone including Thanos worry about their versions of what the future should be.

IC (Gamora and the Avengers) : Physics, with concerns of Obtaining. Gamora worries about what happens if Thanos obtains the stones. Tries to prevent it. Thor needs to obtain the axe etc. Activities to influence the turnout of events.

RS: (Father/Daughter and whatever with the avengers) : Mind. What they think. Their concerns of the Subconscious…

So what do you think guys.

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That’s my thinking, too. The only one I remember clearly thinking was an IC was Gamora, who seemed to really be pushing him to think of ‘another way’, and even gave him pause before he did what he ‘had’ to do. But even then, I can’t really think of any IC who clearly changed in the movie (because Thanos is clearly a steadfast character, right?). Maybe Strange, having changed from his ‘I’ll let you all die to protect the time stone’ idea to ‘spare him and you can have the stone, Thanos’, but it might be an OS thing. Hm. I’ll try to catch it again this weekend.

Maybe every individual group has an IC for Thanos? Might be wishful thinking.

There’s a lot of stuff I’m not sure on, but I am certain this is a Physics story, and almost definitely an Obtaining goal. Not only is Thanos and his goons looking to obtain the stones (and then make half of the galaxy ‘lose’), you have the Avengers trying to prevent the capture/loss of Vision and trying to stop Thanos from gaining the other stones.

Couple that with the sheer amount of destruction that this huge war is causing to various planets and cities, and you have the makings of an epic Physics story.

Other examples of Obtaining: the loss of Gamora; gaining of a new weapon (and eye); trying to get the gauntlet off of Thanos’s arm; the revenge quests of Drax, Gamora and Nebula (and later Star-Lord/Thor); losing half of the galaxy. It’s possible that Obtaining is a Benchmark, but I’m absolutely certain that it’s the Goal.

The placement of everything else, I’m a little fuzzy on until I see it again.

OK @jhay. I’ll state my argument.

If everyone was focused on Obtaining, then what was the struggle to stop Thanos about? That would be more of Doing. Stopping Thanos.

But they were all worried about The Future. Gamora was worried about what kind of Future it would be if Thanos gets the stones. Also Thanos OS concern is a future where half the population is wiped out.
Even look at the early scene of Dr Strange looking at all 14 million + possible Futures.
The OS Benchmark is The Past. Each time the Past comes up, it messes with Future concerns. See the scene where Starlord hears of Gamora’s fate. Thanos’ most recent past. He throws all caution to the wind and messes with the immediate Future that could have been(them taking off the gauntlet).

And this funnels into the OS issue of Choice(my storyform so far).
Starlord having to choose to shoot Gamora, Thanos torturing the cyborg (Gamora’s sis), giving Gamora’s no other Choice but to tell him the location of the stone. Also Thanos making the tough choice of tossing Gamora’s off the cliff. Etc.

Also the Issue of Scarlet witch having to make the tough Choice to destroy the stone. Etc

The Obtaining for Thanos is the COST in order to get the stones.

But I don’t see stopping him as the issue, as much as it’s stopping him from getting the stones. If he didn’t get all of the stones, Thor could have killed him at the end with no problem. If they got the gauntlet off of him (and Star-Lord hadn’t punched him), everything would have been okay. Thanos alone is powerful, but it’s the knowledge of what he can do with all six stones that feels like the biggest concern for everyone (including him).

I think the only one really concerned with ‘The Future’ (so to speak) was Thanos. He was the only one talking about how he wanted to rebalance things, how he wanted to save the future of the universe. Seems to me that everyone else is either dealing with getting the stones/Vision (mostly Cap and his guys) or just confronting their deepest fears (Stark, Star-Lord and Strange saw this one most). The only other instance of ‘Future’ I can think of was the Doctor Strange meditation moment, and that didn’t really feel like a ‘concern’ as much as a set-up for the next film.

A couple of questions before I go see it again (I want to be as open-minded as possible):

  • How do you see Thanos as a Be-er?
  • What, specifically, is the ‘Situation’ that needs to be unstuck in the OS?
  • What ‘activities’ are the IC(s) taking part in that challenge the MC (that aren’t in the OS)?

I’m gonna rewatch with an open mind, so I don’t want you thinking I’m dismissing your argument whatsoever as much as challenging it to get a better view of where you’re coming from.

Thanos believes that he has to gain the power first before he can do what needs to be done.

He had a moment where he had to Steel himself before he could do what he did to Gamora.

About Situation…I’m not really a fan of the newer terms. Universe is more apt.
It’s the External state of things that needs fixing.
War is coming. Or rather, War is here. The destruction of the cities(including asgard), the state of panic,
And from a KTAD perspective. It’s the Knowledge that once he gets the stones, it’s over. Gamora in the OS knows something Thanos does not.
Thor knows a place that he can get the weapon he needs to stop Thanos.

They don’t know how things might turn out. etc.

The IC portion…I think it’s Gamora primarily but it’s very little in the whole film.
She tries to kill Thanos by seeking him out. Theres more but I need to see the movie again as well.

I think Obtaining is the Benchmark. Or maybe even the Forewarnings.

I think the throughlines are:

  • OS: Activity/Doing - Doing what it takes to get the Infinity Stones (And the Avengers et al weren’t just concerned with stopping Thanos, but how are we going to stop him. Also, Wanda didn’t want to do what it took to destroy the Mind stone.)
  • MC: Situation/Progress - Thanos and the Balance of the Universe.
  • IC: Fixed Attitude/Preconscious - Gamora, who tried to get others to go against their impulsive responses (and later, others was the motivating factor behind impulsive responses that others failed to stop)
  • RS: Manipulation/Being - Thanos and Gamora’s argument over being a father/daughter

That was my takeaway from it.


I agree. If this doesn’t turn out to be an OS in Physics with a goal of Obtaining, I really need to rethink everything I’ve learned about Dramatica. :wink:

Every major player is concerned with Obtaining the stones (or destroying them.) Without the stones there’s no conflict or story.

And the Consequence must be Becoming – half the world will be dead because of Thanos.

Thanos as MC struck me as well, though I’m not sure about him being the Protagonist. That seems like a shared role between several Avengers, all of whom are for securing the stones (Goal of Obtaining.) Thanos seems to be for the Consequence of Becoming – transforming it through genocide so the rest of life can thrive.


If Thanos is the protagonist (and if it’s an Obtaining story), then he’s rooting for the Obtaining goal (and succeeds), while the Avengers are trying to stop him. So I think the consequence is more that Thanos will be killed if he doesn’t get them – which he almost is, by Thor. But it was too late, because Thanos had already succeeded in his goal by that point.

Incidentally, I think I have a good argument for the IC Resolve and Domain, but I’m going to see it again tomorrow, so I’ll be back to discuss in full then. I’m not gonna get involved anymore until I have some examples to back my claims up/reasons to question other people’s arguments! (or a completed infinity gauntlet, and then nobody can stop me! :fist:)

((that’s a joke. I’m not a monster. I mean, yeah, I’m British, but not the evil kind…))

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The only way I can make my story form make sense is if the Outcome is a success. We won’t know what the outcome is going to be until part 2 comes out, but I’m betting that the Outcome won’t be success. Thanos (the protagonist) will not succeed.

The Directors and Writers (and Feige) have stressed pretty heavily that they’ve structured Infinity War and Avengers 4 to be “two distinct movies”, that are “very very different from one another.”

When we see the second, it’s possible that there might be an overarching storyform between the two and we can try and explore that later, but for now… I’d trust the authors and just assume they’re two different stories that happen to follow on from one another and share a couple of elements, probably.


Well, then, in that case, here’s the story form I came up with. I’m posting it just to see how close I got to matching the maestro, @jhay.

Overall Story Synopsis:
DRIVER: Decision
LIMIT: Optionlock
OUTCOME: Success

DOMAIN: Activity
CONCERN: Obtaining
ISSUE: Approach vs. Attitude
PROBLEM: Feeling
SYMPTOM: Consider
RESPONSE: Reconsider
CATALYST: Morality
INHIBITOR: Commitment
BENCHMARK: Gathering Information
SIGNPOST 1: Understanding
SIGNPOST 2: Obtaining
SIGNPOST 3: Gathering Information
GOAL: Obtaining
CONSEQUENCE: Changing One’s Nature
COST: The Future
DIVIDEND: Innermost Desires
REQUIREMENT: Gathering Information
PREREQUISITE: Conceiving an Idea
FOREWARNINGS: Contemplation


Main Character Synopsis:
DOMAIN: Fixed Attitude
CONCERN: Innermost Desires
ISSUE: Hope vs. Dream
PROBLEM: Feeling
SYMPTOM: Control
RESPONSE: Uncontrolled
BENCHMARK: Contemplation
SIGNPOST 1: Memories
SIGNPOST 2: Impulsive Responses
SIGNPOST 3: Innermost Desires
SIGNPOST 4: Contemplation

INFLUENCE CHARACTER THROUGHLINE: Thor, Gamora, and probably others

Influence Character Synopsis:
IC RESOLVE: Steadfast
DOMAIN: Situation
CONCERN: The Future
ISSUE: Delay vs. Choice
PROBLEM: Disbelief
SYMPTOM: Consider
RESPONSE: Reconsider
BENCHMARK: The Present
SIGNPOST 1: The Past
SIGNPOST 2: How Things are Changing
SIGNPOST 3: The Future
SIGNPOST 4: The Present

RELATIONSHIP THROUGHLINE: The Relationship (this raises a question for me. Thor and Thanos share no screen time until the very end and Thanos experiences nothing from Thor even indirectly until the very end, so can they have an RS? Maybe Thor isn’t an IC.)

Relationship Story Synopsis:
DOMAIN: Manipulation
CONCERN: Changing One’s Nature
ISSUE: Rationalization vs. Obligation
SYMPTOM: Consider
RESPONSE: Reconsider
CATALYST: Responsibility
INHIBITOR: Self Interest
BENCHMARK: Conceiving an Idea
SIGNPOST 1: Developing a Plan
SIGNPOST 2: Playing a Role
SIGNPOST 3: Changing One’s Nature
SIGNPOST 4: Conceiving an Idea

I thought Gamora was the closest thing to a main character. It’s possible that the MC throughline went away or was handed off (perhaps to Quill? perhaps to Thanos?) once Thanos gets the soul gem.

  1. We’re clearly in her head during her flashback when she was a kid. We’re never in Thanos’s head.
  2. We’re in her shoes when she’s talking with Quill regarding her “you need to kill me so that I don’t let my secret slip” and similarly when Thanos, Quill, & Gamora have their confrontation.

A lot of the MC, IC, & RS throughlines I see so far here are OS roles. As MC, I think she is “the daughter of a complicated dad” which is separate from “I need to stop his caper” or “I need to persuade him to change his mind so that he stops his caper.”

I think Gamora is the Chief IC. There’s a bit handing off later. But you see, Thanos did not mourn anyone else. He kept those feelings trapped in. He dealt with them internally, thus solidifying him as a Be-er. A very active Be-er.

Their relationships argument is WHAT love is. Gamora feels Thanos’ definition of fatherly love is off. Thanos feels differently. He feels he made her strong.

As for his throughline, he’s the only one doing the manipulation. See how he used the reality stone in the Knowhere scene. He manipulated everything. Even telling Gamoras that he counted on her showing up. Telling starlord he respects him after pulling the trigger. Also remember how he manipulated the time stone. And his manner of thinking even when faced with death; telling Thor he should have aimed for the head etc.

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Okay, just saw it again. First thought: @Khodu was right with his first post. It’s almost totally OS. There’s maybe one or two RS scenes in the whole thing. Given that, and the fact that so much of it is paying off stuff from the past 10 years, I wouldn’t be surprised if Dramatica considered it to be a dysfunctional story. I’m working on the basis that it isn’t dysfunctional, but having watched it again… I do think it’s a possibility.

Sorry for the long post.

So, I kept an eye out for the non-Obtaining OS domains and concerns everyone suggested above all else. Here’s my basic feelings on those, post-second viewing:

[I highlighted the bits above because they’re not external states – destroying cities and obtaining things are physical activities. Also that last line sounds like an Obtaining goal…]

  • OS Domain of Universe. Here’s the thing: for a second, I did think maybe it was a Situation story. There’s one group of characters that could be considered ‘stuck’ in the Overall Story. Tony, Strange and Spidey get stuck on Titan, right? They crash land and can’t get out. However, Star-Lord and his guys show up in their ship, so now (theoretically) they can leave, which kind of unsticks the whole thing. That’s about as close as you get to a Universe domain here. Now, if the inequity was actually the fact that planets are going hungry, that could also be a Universe domain (limited resources). But the problems are stemming from Thanos acting to prevent that by going across the galaxy and bombing and destroying and killing, etc. If Thanos stopped attacking everything and chasing the stones, there would be no war. So, cannot be a Situation.
  • That whole post was a great argument, honestly. But the issues beneath Doing especially feel really wrong. Skill and Experience? I’m not sure I see that with all of the infinity stones and stuff. And for Gamora, I think her influence is much more about the subconscious. Her fearlessness makes Thanos feel compassion for her; her death instills a fiery rage in Quill because of their love, etc.

  • OS: To cut it short, I came out more convinced that it’s an Obtaining story. From the very first scene, Thanos makes clear that he wants all six stones and sends his guys out to help find them. Pretty much every scene after that involves something similar: obtaining or preventing the stone from being obtained; capturing Strange; getting a ‘Thanos-killing’ weapon; Drax/Gamora/Nebula/Star-Lord/Thor/Thanos getting revenge for everything they’ve lost; the endless loss of life; capturing Gamora; getting the stone out of Vision’s head; getting more help from Wakandan tribes to fight the Overriders; getting the glove off; making a sacrifice to gain something else; destroying the soul stone (and losing a loved one). There’s SO much obtaining. Also, Thor getting his new eye, and Bucky getting his new arm.

  • MC: I can see where @khodu (and @yellowsuspenders – not a maestro in any form, by the way, but I appreciate the compliment! :wink:) is coming from with the Thanos-as-Be-er thing, but I think he’s just a crafty do-er. When he changes reality to trick the Guardians, isn’t that quite literally a way of changing the world around him? And even his whole MO: he goes from planet to planet, wiping out half the population to save them. That’s VERY physical to me. Also, he gets a whole scene to establish his baggage: he tried to save his planet, failed and he’s now a ‘survivor’.

  • My half-decent IC argument: I think Gamora/Strange are the main ICs, with a hint of Cap/Spidey (I mean a HINT – like two scenes). Maybe even Loki. I’ll explain why with three quotes I scribbled down immediately after leaving:

Cap: “We don’t trade lives.”
Spidey: “You can’t be a friendly neighborhood Spider-man if there’s no neighborhood.”
Strange: “If it comes to you, the kid or the time stone, I have no problems letting you die.”

I think the IC perspective is supposed to represent the fixed attitude of ‘we don’t sacrifice.’ Whereas Thanos is very much ‘sacrifice is necessary to ensure the future of your people’, Strange especially represents that fixed attitude of “I will not sacrifice this.” Gamora, too, is unwilling to give up the location of the Soul Stone, pretending to be ignorant of it. It’s only when her sister is tortured that she gives it up (as does Strange when Tony is threatened, and Loki when Thor is threatened). I think that’s supposed to be the IC resolve of Change: they all had to sacrifice things they wanted to protect in order to save another.

  • And the RS is barely there, but there’s a scene between Thanos and Gamora where he muses how she wanted him to take over his throne someday, suggesting that maybe the relationship is one that wanted to become a familial one, but just never could.

I also think, perhaps controversially, that this is a structural happy ending with a LOT of Costs. That end scene with Thanos smiling is definitely a judgement of ‘Good’…