Infinity war pt1

There’s the scene just after Thor gets him with the axe where he goes to that weird orange world and sees Gamora. That’s 100% in Thanos’s head.

I can’t remember the rest of that flashback scene, though, so I can’t speak to whether or not it was from her POV.

The challenge with this is that we’re seeing absolutely everything all the time (with four groups of people), so it’s hard to define a specific ‘point of view’. But I think Thanos definitely had the personal baggage with his whole ‘I’m a Survivor, and I will save everyone else from that fate’ thing.


I was just thinking about this, and here’s a thought:

What about Bruce Banner as a Main Character/Subplot Character?

We get his own personal struggle of the Hulk not wanting to come out, which ends up getting resolved when Bruce fights Kull Obsidian (Black Dwarf?) and says, “I’ll do it myself.”

Given that he’s the first one to fight Thanos, then spends most of the story from to get others to join the fight, while also personally struggling with the Hulk not wanting to come out, until finally he decides that he’s going to do it himself. It kind of mirrors Thanos’ Main Character throughline of being the one who will “take care” of the problem of overpopulation. And Stark, then Cap would be his Influence Characters, who are all running headlong into the problem and not waiting for others to join in. And in the climax, Banner is literally wearing the suit that Stark created to beat up the Hulk.

With that in mind, could we use that to separate some of the story? Could it be that there are multiple storyforms going on at once?


Great overall analysis.
Assuming Thanos is a Steadfast MC, I keep trying to figure out who the changed IC is. I agree that Gamora is the only one who has anything resembling a relationship with Thanos. But she never comes around to Thanos’s way of thinking. She won’t sacrifice her sister’s life for the greater good.

The only character who adopts Thanos’s thinking is Dr. Strange. When he foresees the 1 way in 14 million that the Avengers will win, it’s implied that in order to achieve that victory, Thanos needs to get the stones and go ahead with his plan. Strange decides that half of life will need to be wiped out in order to ultimately save everyone, which will likely happen in the next movie. Like Thanos, he’s willing to sacrifice life in order to ultimately save it.

But Thanos and Strange have no relationship to speak of, so there must be some kind of handoff going on.


I disagree with all of these.

I think he’s steadfast
The audience is waiting for him to STOP
He’s most definitely a do-er
And he’s very linear.


I think there is. I did my best not to mention Hulk/Banner in my analysis thing because I feel like there’s something kinda screwy with that story thread in particular. It feels purposefully unfinished (obviously to have Hulk make his spectacular return in the next one), and doesn’t really gel with the main story in quite the same way as the others, which makes me think there are at least SOME threads in this one that will get ‘resolved’ in Avengers 4. So it’s possible that there might be some substories going on, but I can’t think of any others. What groupings would you suggest?

100%. I wasn’t totally sure when @adanawtn mentioned it initially, but she’s completely right. Once Gamora’s gone, it’s pretty much Strange for the rest of the movie. His change is really clear. Gamora takes on the RS, but Strange is the IC. (Though it does get handed off pretty regularly)

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Here’s my initial thoughts for the different storyforms.

MC Thanos + IC Gamora/Strange (/Rodgers) - Making the necessary sacrifices vs Not doing that (Morality vs Self Interest)

MC Bruce Banner + IC Stark/Rodgers/Hulk - Relying on others vs Doing it yourself (Approach vs Attitude)

MC Stark + IC Parker/Strange/Quill - Being in the moment vs Thinking about the repercussions (Senses vs Interpretation)

MC Thor + IC Rocket/Groot/Eitri - Trusting in your own strength vs Accepting Defeat (Skill vs Experience)

Totally open to suggestions, though.

Here’s a question that’s been bugging me: Is Obtaining the Infinity Stones the goal of the story, or the requirement for reaching that goal? I would think “balancing the universe” or “ending the existence of 50% of all life in the universe” is the goal of the story. That sounds more like Doing, although I have a hard time imagining the consequence of Playing a Role/Being.

There may be something there, but I’ve heard Bruce Banner and the Hulk are supposed to have some character arc that runs through Thor: Ragnarok, Avengers: Infinity War: and the Untitled Avengers 4. So if he has some sort of throughline/subplot, it’s likely to be incomplete until Avengers 4 comes out. If he does have a complete subplot with an IC, I think it might be plausible that Hulk plays the IC role and Banner is the MC. Then again, it could just be a MC throughline on it’s own.

I thought the same thing. And I think that the consequence of Being would then be Not Being able to be the heroes (the Avengers) that you thought you were.

Its cool that we disagree. That is what good discussions are made of.

I think that last scene where he smiles reveals the change. Thanos is a haunted man. He is haunted by what happened to Titan when it failed to cut its population. He couldn’t prevent what happened to Titan, so he has made deadly certain that he will stop what happens to the rest of the Universe. He is very, very grim, until he has achieved his goal. Then, he smiles and appreciates a job well done.

I believe they are waiting for him to start snapping his fingers.

While he certainly does a great deal of stuff, he does it because he is be-ing. The remorse at what happened to Titan is the be-ing which sets all the do-ing into motion.

Before I respond to that, I’d like to make sure that you and I have a common understanding of what ‘holistic’ means.

Adana made a great argument for that, which I’m still considering honestly – even though I don’t see it right now, I haven’t ruled it out. I’m just not sure on it because the issues don’t sit quite right for me at the moment.

My guess at the requirement is probably Learning or Understanding – figuring out where the other stones are; understanding what you have to do for the soul stone, etc. The goal, I think, is: ‘to gain the stones’. I think balancing the universe/wiping half of the planet, honestly, is the dividend – that’s the Future Thanos was fighting for, and that’s the future he’s happy to gain at the end.

I’m still open to a convincing argument for another quad, but my question to you would be: what concern would define ‘balancing the universe’ as a source of conflict? Because his approach to doing so is to get rid of half of the population, which is an Obtaining thing – it’s loss, on a giant scale. It’s not like he’s building something new (Doing) or trying to educate people (Learning).

Could you expand on that? I’m not sure I see that in the story. The Avengers seem pretty much totally focused on protecting Vision, getting the stones and/or taking on Thanos.

It would also depend on who you view as protagonist. That consequence would only work if the Avengers (or one of them) were the protagonist.

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My bad. I forgot about the Thanos as the protagonist. Yet, I think an argument could be made that the consequence of Being would be in Thanos not being able to play the role that he’s trying to play, which is Father to all. Which plays into the Relationship Story between him and Gamora (and even Stark – he wasn’t able to be the father figure to Peter that he wanted to be).

As far as the Issues under Doing:

  • Thanos is trying to apply the knowledge that he’s gained from seeing his home planet destroy itself, while the Avengers are trying to protect Vision, who has a certain kind of Enlightenment because of the Mind Stone. They even mention that because of all of the different “minds” that Vision has, he is constantly learning and gaining insights into things.

Plus, his name came from someone (I think Tony) saying “I had a vision.” And it’s Vision’s insight and enlightened solution that they’re all struggling against, and what could have stopped Thanos if everyone has just listened sooner.

  • The Avengers are having to pit their skills against Thanos and the Black Order, but are lacking the Experience of working together, while Thanos and the Black Order have plenty of Experience with destroying worlds decimating populations.

To take it a step further, Thanos sees the world and its population as being Non-Accurate, and is striving to make it Accurate (in his own way). He’s driven by the fact that his home world serves as proof, and he wants to stop that from happening elsewhere. But he’s not making enough progress by attacking one planet at a time.

The thing that really sticks out for me is how Thanos describes what he’s working towards – being able to achieve his goal with the “snap of a finger.” He’s already been trying to Obtain balance before the story starts. In this story, he’s solely focused on how he can do that effectively and efficiently.

And he’s doing it in a way that no one else can - he got Eitri to make the gauntlet in order to be able to wield the stones, then made sure that Eitri couldn’t make another one by killing all the other dwarves. If he was simply focused on achieving the deaths of half the sentient lifeforms in the galaxy, he could have kept planet-hopping and killing with his army. His end goal isn’t the Infinity Stones themselves. It’s what he’ll be able to Do with them.

Plus, when you think about it, the goal isn’t achieved when Thanos gets the last Infinity Stone. Otherwise, that would have been the end of it. But that was the Requirement.

Thor shoving an axe in his chest was Thanos’ fall right before the climax. The actual climax - the final driver that brought about the successful conclusion of the story for the protagonist - was when Thanos snapped his finger.

Also, with one of the big themes in the story being Sacrifice, a lot of focus is placed on what you have to do in order to achieve your goals. Whether that’s lose something or kill someone,whatever. Sacrifice is something you do. What you sacrificed is something you lose.

So… yeah. Those are my thoughts on it.


Dang, those are some good arguments! I’m gonna have to sleep on this and come back tomorrow.

I think you have a point. I’m trying to think of when the crisis arrives. The optionlock is clearly the 5 remaining stones. Once they’re all collected, the crisis arrives. So yeah, the stones may not be THE goal. But I still can’t see the goal as anything other than Obtaining (ridding half of the galaxy of its inhabitants) and the consequence as Becoming (almost dying at the last hurdle feels like an illustration of what could have been…).

I’m gonna go sleep, think it over and come back. Great arguments, though, @adanawtn! You delivered mightily. :clap:


This makes me think of another point.

The fact that it’s Thor – a literal god – doing the shoving (and the reason he’s doing it) connects the end of the story back to the beginning and brings up what Loki told Thanos when he died:

“You will never be a god.”

At that last second, Thanos is facing the consequence of not being a god in the face. Also, if you look at Thor and Loki and the fact that the gods that they pray to are the All Fathers, it creates another point of connection to the theme of Being a Father (/God). Plus, Thanos isn’t trying to make the role a permanent thing. He wants to play his role, then retire.

Plus, I’m pretty sure that someone (Strange, I think) asked Thanos about dying before he completed his task, and his response was more along the lines of, his death would prove that he wasn’t worthy of playing the role. So death isn’t really a consequence in Thanos’ eyes. It’s not being able to be who he believes he should be for the sake of the galaxy.

And it was Thor’s decision to go for Thanos’ chest instead of his head that allowed the final driver to happen.

Nope. That’s not my understanding of change/steadfast. He never falters or shifts what he is going after. He is absolutely steadfast in his pursuit of the stones and murdering half of everybody.

Leading too, what the audience is waiting for…we are ON the side of the Avengers, so w are waiting for him to either not commit mass murder or to be stopped from committing mass murder.

He IS trying to bring balance, but he isn’t trying to do it by adjusting himself, he’s actively changing the world around him, definitely not a be-er.

Holistic is all about balance and what affects what – but he didn’t really care about balance, just about offing half of everything. We see earth, but it would be everywhere in the universe that was offed, What about planets that didn’t/don’t have an over-populations problem? What about the Asgardians that had already been cut down to prolly a few thousand? He was completely linear - this is what I want, I have my reasons, now Eff anyone who disagrees or stands in my way. FULLY LINEAR.

I actually have a huge problem with him getting the soul stone by sacrificing Gamora – IF you love a person you might sacrifice them to save them something worse (death with dignity, or death over torture) but if you sacrifice them for something YOU care about more than them, you do’t love them. Plain and simple. Throwing Gamora over proved he didn’t love her, therefore he couldn’t get the stone. Now if he’d thrown the gauntlet — then maybe.


[[quote=“jassnip, post:34, topic:1730”]
He IS trying to bring balance, but he isn’t trying to do it by adjusting himself, he’s actively changing the world around him, definitely not a be-er.

I think I need to see the movie again. When I remember the scene with him and Gamora, right before he kills her, I remember him being reluctant. He has to do something he does not want to do. But, more than that, he has to be someone he does not want to be - someone capable of doing what he does not want to do. But, I’ll have to watch the movie again to be sure.

The Dramatica software states in explaining growth, “Growth: The growth of the Main Character toward ending something or beginning something.” Thanos is definitely starting something.

Did he say that he would cut each planet’s population in half or did he say that he was going to cut the population of the Universe in half? I don’t remember him saying the first one, but, like I said, I need to see the movie again.

I don’t agree with that. I mean, I believe each case needs to be judged on its own merits. Consider, as an example, a parent who testifies against their adult child in a felony trial. When I was in school getting my anthropology degree, we talked a lot about stuff like this - parents who killed their babies because there wasn’t enough food to go around. Its a sucky situation all around.

The earlier longer scene where we see young Gamora meeting Thanos for the first time is Gamora’s flashback. It was the one where Thanos gave her the balanced knife while the population was lined up in halves & killed by Thanos’s crew.

The orange one is ~2 hrs later, and I agree that is more Thanos’s perspective. Ditto for zooming in on his reaction to tossing Gamora and for watching him chill out alone while viewing the sunset after the oh snap.

I think there may be a “co-MC” or shared-MC (along with a shared IC–kind of like the movie 360) for what little subjective throughlines there are. Perhaps as a way to dilute the impact of “hey audience, let’s get inside this uber-villain’s head! Fun, right?”

I suggest an OS goal of obtaining–but focused on the population not the stones. If the protagonist is Thanos, then the goal is to lose (“un-obtain”) half the population (or carbon footprints–I can’t resist loving the fact that the uber-villain is basically a consistent environmentalist). If the protagonist is Doctor Strange, et al, then the goal is to stop the caper to lose half the population.


That’s what I’ve come around to. I think the stones might just be more of a concern thing than a goal thing. Losing the population feels more likely as a goal (it’s also the thing that Gamora/the Guardians want to prevent – it’s Strange and Cap’s team that are more focused on the stones, but even they’re aware of what Thanos can and will do because Banner is screaming about it the whole time).

Also, @adanawtn: I’m still thinking over your points, but I won’t get a chance to respond today, sadly. I’ll do so ASAP!


I thought the stones were the requirement.

I haven’t seen it, yet but It kind of sounds like The Creature in the Black Lagoon.