Infinity war pt1

analysis
#41

There are a bunch of people that agree with you on that. I’m not sure where the stones sit in the storyform at the minute. At present, I’m 95% behind Obtaining as the OS concern because the source of basically all of the conflict in the OS is stemming from people kidnapping (capturing Strange)/sacrificing (sacrificing Gamora for the stone)/escaping (finding refuge in Wakanda)/stealing (the stones)/saving (rescuing Vision)/destroying (the Asgardian ship/Knowhere), etc.

I’m trying to think through what Adana said fully and completely before I commit to anything, so I’m more interested in hearing everyone else’s thoughts. Where/what do you think the concerns sit, @jassnip?

#42

Finally saw this last night. I just want a whole movie with Thor and Starlord.

As far as Thanos as MC, what kind of personal baggage did he have that he could take into a completely different story?

Also, what would you say the argument of Infinity Wars was?

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#43

I can give you the storyform I got…

It’s the only one I see…and I’ve tried a bunch…that is even close to fitting

12 essentials

CHARACTER DYNAMICS:
MC RESOLVE: Steadfast
MC GROWTH: Stop
MC APPROACH: Do-er
MC PROBLEM-SOLVING STYLE: Linear

PLOT DYNAMICS:
DRIVER: Decision
LIMIT: Optionlock
OUTCOME: Success
JUDGMENT: Bad

OS STORY ELEMENTS
DOMAIN: Activity
CONCERN: Doing
ISSUE: Enlightenment
PROBLEM: Process

#44

Thanos, would take regret (not saving Titan), loneliness (why he “adopted” Gamora and Nebula) and failure (despite his moment in the sun, the universe isn’t static and even the infinity stones can’t change that) into any other story.

Argument: If you sacrifice everything you will find peace.

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#45

But how is this separate from the issues found in the Overall Story perspective?

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#46

Didn’t he define himself as a “survivor”? His source of frustration seemed to me that he was cast out of his home planet (unfairly, to him) and denounced as a “madman”.

I couldn’t even begin to guess at the argument right now. The only thing I’m 100% certain on at the minute is that Thanos is a Steadfast character.

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#47

He would only be a Steadfast character in the context of an argument. If you can’t define the argument, then Changed/Steadfast is irrelevant.

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#48

It’s separate because they are never explored on an emotional level. They are looked at objectively in the OS, bu they aren’t looked at subjectively in the MC throughline. But in another story with Thanos as MC…the 2nd part of the argument below would come into play.

The argument needs the vs.

Sacrificing others for your own ends will never bring you peace.

#49

Fair point. That’s going in my ‘remember this’ folder.

Alright, here’s what I think the argument is: “Keep being unrestrained and you can achieve balance in the universe.”

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#50

Ok. So then the question to ask would be, how is he unrestrained in his personal life, separate from his function as bringing balance to the universe and how this affect him on a personal and emotional level?

And then who challenges this approach?

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#51

The only one who could would be Gamora.[quote=“jhull, post:50, topic:1730”]
how is he unrestrained in his personal life, separate from his function as bringing balance to the universe and how this affect him on a personal and emotional level?
[/quote]
Can you rephrase the question…I’m not parsing it well and it’s not making sense to me.

#52

Hm. I can’t. In fact, when I think about it, that crucial element doesn’t sound right at all. Unrestrained/Uncontrolled is way more Star-Lord than Thanos. Thanos is completely in control, even when wreaking havoc. Look at when Loki tries to stab him, or Gamora launches at him – he’s always a step ahead, controlling the situation. So that ain’t right.

Thing is, I’ve seen it twice and Thanos is the only one who I felt I was empathising with, but I can only remember one scene (maybe two if you think about the orange scene at the end, but that feels more like a cost if anything) where he had clearly defined baggage.

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#53

Argument: Keep correcting what isn’t accurate, and you can do what no one else is willing to do.

Thanos’ personal struggle of trying to make things perfect exists outside of trying to balance the world. His relationship with Gamora and Nebula is mired in making them stronger and better (more balanced – like the knife he gives Gamora). He would have kept doing that even if he wasn’t dealing with the whole “balancing the Universe” thing. In fact, he used that in order to torture Nebula for sneaking on the ship and trying to kill him.

He also collects the strongest fighters from every civilization that he wipes out. He’s obsessed with skill and being able to add to his arsenal, which he calls his “children”. The Black Order are a testament to that. That issue in his personal life exists as a separate function, and has been explored in other stories.

Gamora and Nebula are the ones that challenge Thanos’ approach towards perfection. Gamora constantly challenges Thanos’ approach towards trying to make things the way he believes they should be. She also influences those around her by trying to get them to not act on their impulses:

  • Chiding Quill and Rocket when they talk about stealing stuff from the Asgardian ship when they’re on their way to answer the distress call
  • Having to get Quill to stop acting on his impulses so that he’ll take her seriously when she asks him to make the promise.
  • The fact that she breaks down in tears after she thinks she killed Thanos shows that, even though she hates him, she can’t help but to react to the death of her father figure.

Stark kind of works as an Influence Character in that regard as well, with his relationship with Peter and trying to protect his surrogate son.

  • Where Stark makes an iron Spidey suit for Peter Parker, Thanos literally replaced parts of Nebula with machinery.
  • Where Stark tries to keep Peter out of harm’s way, Thanos made his children fight each other and do other horrible things in order to make them stronger.
  • Where Stark tried to stop Quill from being violent, Thanos encouraged him to do it, then decided that he liked Quill because of it (because he was willing to do what needed to be done).

And after Gamora dies, the Influence Character role is passed to Stark through Nebula’s confirmation that Thanos killed Gamora. Where Gamora tells Peter Quill to kill her if Thanos captures her, Stark is the one trying to stop Quill from acting on impulse when he learns that Thanos killed Gamora.

Proposed Essentials:

Resolve: Steadfast
Growth: Stop
Approach: Do-er
PS Style: Linear

Driver: Action
Limit: Optionlock
Outcome: Success
Judgment: Good

OS Domain: Activity
OS Concern: Doing
OS Issue: Experience
OS: Problem: Determination

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#54

That sounds awesome. Was that in the movie I saw last night? I don’t even remember any of this being discussed.

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#55

Well, I’m struggling to remember the exact quotes, but I believe that

  • Thanos called baby Gamora "fierce’ before taking her off to the side and giving her the balanced knife
  • Thanos mentioned in his talk with Gamora that the way he raised her made her the fiercest woman in the galaxy.
  • When Nebula gets to Thanos and tells him that he should have killed her, his response was “That would be a waste of parts.”

The only problem I’m having with this is that most of the time when Thanos’ way with his children is mentioned in reference to a previous movie. But I’m 96% sure that someone (possibly one of the Black Order) mentioned Thanos taking the stronger of each race as one of his children. I just can’t remember who it was.

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#56

the audience does not judge thanos’s mass murder as “good” Do you know how many people walked out of the theater devastated?

#57

Yes, I do know. I was one of those audience members.

But the Main Character resolved his personal angst. Is that not what Judgment means in Dramatica? For Thanos, as the Main Character, it was a good ending.

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#58

Nope…it’s an audience judgement of whether their resolution is a good thing or bad thing.

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#59

Not according to the Dramatica definition.

Judgment
the author’s assessment of whether or not the Main Character has resolved his personal problem
The notion that the good guys win and the bad guys lose is not always true. In stories, as in life, we often see very bad

The audience may not like the ending or think that it was happy. But happy and good are not the same thing. And as far as Dramatica is concerned, if we’re saying that Thanos is the Main Character, then the smile in the sunset at the end of the movie is the author showing that the Main Character has resolved his personal problem.

After all, if you were rooting for Thanos, then you would be happy with the outcome of the story.

On the other hand, if you’re saying that one of the other characters is the Main Character, then sure, the Judgment could very well be Bad, and match up with the horrible feeling that the audience left the theater with. But for all intents and purposes, in this story, the Main Character got what he wanted and felt good about his choices overall. That’s the Judgment of the story.

The problem with it does bring up is one of inconsistency in terms of theme. Whereas every other character who tries to “trade lives” for the greater good ended up failing and subsequently being punished for it in the story (i.e. Wanda and Star Lord). Thanos traded a life for the greater good, and ended up getting what he wanted and being able to enjoy a sunrise the next day. Of course, being that this isn’t the end of Thanos’ story, that sacrifice could come back to haunt him later on.

However, in this story, where everyone else suffered when they tried to trade a life for the greater good, Thanos did not. If he had, or if he felt bent out of shape about it for longer than it took to hop worlds and get into another fight, then that would be a different story. As it stands, when you weigh out the good with the bad for Thanos, it averages out on the side of good in terms of him being able to resolve his personal problem with the Universe.

Besides, the objective story points in Dramatica aren’t about how the audience will feel about it. It’s about what the author is trying to say. (Which is why I bring up the inconsistency in themes.)

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#60

Well, huh. Cuz I’ve always thought that was an audience appreciation…but I tried to look for where I got that idea and I can’t find it.

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