From Theory to Writing / Application and Outlining / Story Paradigms

writing
#1

Hi!

I am digging deep into the theory of Story Structure
of Dramatica to wrap my head around it. I additionally read
several books now in order to understand which
other Structure Paradigms exist out there in the
world and learnt that the classic Journey of the
Hero or Save the Cat is only the beginning of a possible Story
Structure and Dramatica offers so much more.

I found “Dramatica for Screenwriters” and i have
the impression it is extremely helpful, still i am wishing
there is something similiar for novel writers.

In general my goal is to outline my whole novel
before i start the writing - i think thats the way
that fits best to me. I am flirting with
a more classic fixed paradigm approach (Heros Journey)
but in my head there is this constant voice which reminds
me how more powerful Dramaticas Approach
is - but is so difficult for me to get from a theory-level
to a real application in terms of getting a good outline.

I have difficulties to find a middle-ground between
all the more fixed story structure paradigms
out there (which seem at first sight easier to
grasp and to translate into something comprehensible
for me) and Dramaticas elaborate and flexible
ways regarding structure. But this precious
freedom Dramatica offers is a real difficulty for me in regard to
the achievement of my goal to get a clear outline
down to scene level which makes sense and
does not end in a whole mess.

Do you know any good book or internet resources
especially for the application (not only theory,
i already read the theory book twice) of Dramatica
in terms of Novel Writing - especially not with a sole
emphasis on Screenwriting?

Or is Dramatica a tool that is way more helpful
and comprehensible for professional Screenwriters?

How is the best way to get my outline
in Dramaticas Ways?

Thx so much for your support
of a beginner-level novel writer
and sorry, if my english is not the very good -
i am german and i try my best :wink:

Greetings,
Manuel

#2

Little Addition:

I am especially interested how you create or weave
a good tension arc over the four signposts
in each throughline that create similiar
effects like in the other paradigms like
the First Plot Point, Pinch Points, Midpoint, etc.
(i.e. Larry Brooks, Story Engineering).

#4

I think the reason that so many movies are referenced is because they are shorter to finish and then analyze. But the theory applies to any kind of storytelling. (Also, there is a podcast covering Das Leben der Anderen that may be helpful.)

I don’t know of any resource specifically for novels. But here is my advice:

Break the job of making the outline into little pieces. If you try to fill out a perfect outline from the beginning, Dramatica will be overwhelming.

See if you can tell the whole story in 6 to 10 events.
See if you can tell the story of your main character in 6 to 10 events.
See if you can tell the story of how the Impact Character makes trouble for the Main Character in 6 to 10 events.
Etc.

I would even say to outline your story using The Hero’s Journey or Save The Cat. What? Isn’t this verboten? Well, no – it’s not. Because it’s only an outline. Then go in and make it better using everything you can from Dramatica. The other paradigms are weaker, but your goal isn’t to use them to make a perfect outline, it’s to use them to make a first draft of an outline, and then to improve it.

Any tool you can use to move forward is a good tool.

(Warning: many things in The Hero’s Journey and Save the Cat can lead you in the wrong direction. Only use the parts that feel right to you, because your inner voice is smart.)

Once you have all of these pieces, see if you need to add good interactions that relate to the Signposts. See if you need to add things like Catalysts.

At this stage, everything is just ideas. Get as many as you can.

1 Like
#5

Hi Manu

I have very good experience with the following workflow:

If I have a story idea first thing I do is trying to figure out what is my main problem “…that brings everything out of balance”. If I don’t have an answer I try to find the domain where my problem belongs to:

  • Problem with a situation
  • Problem with the way they think
  • Problem with the way they act
  • Problem with a fixed mindset

Then I start with dramatica and select Domain, Concern and Issue.

So far I know it I select Problem and Solution and Symptom and Response. For me its often easier starting with Symptom (What they think is their problem at the first place) and Response (What is their master plan they think to solve it) and leave the Problem and Solution for later.

After I have a first form with Domains, Concerns and Issues I use Jim Hulls nice “Method For Generating Conflict”:

Example for Story Idea: When perception becomes reality
People need to use their instincts (OS Domain)
in order to excel in their art (MC Domain)
unless
somebody tells them first “what it means” (IC Domain)

Having this brief outline of my story I try plotting the story using save-the-cat and writing for each beat a short paragraph what happens.

Sometimes I write a couple of scenes as well to see if something is developing and if the idea has potential for a shorter, a longer or a story at all.

If the story feels still too abstract, too elaborated or whatever … I look only for the 5 main plot points:

  1. Inciting Event
  2. Plot Point 1
  3. Midpoint
  4. Plot Point 2
  5. Climax

Sometimes it also make sense to think about Pinch Point 1 and 2 which comes shortly after respectively before Plot Point 1 and 2.

It also helps me to figure out early in the process the overall goal – which I often find difficult to nail down, as it keeps moving, especially if I look at Dramatica and see “How things are changing” … but I am getting better at it.

After all, if I still feel to have a good story on hand I go back to dramatica to complete the story form which gives me the Concerns the Singposts.

As a last step I copy the plot progression report into Scrivener and write for each signpost and journey a short paragraph what happens which I use later as scene sketch.

I using Dramatica since two years for writing Novels and it works perfectly for me. The first year I spent a lot of time getting the perfect story form first and getting my head around the theory. Since I am using the workflow described above and use Dramatica “only” for a brief outline I am dedicating more time with writing than I have ever done before … and its much more fun

Last but not least, coming back to your initial question, there are many different methods at work which can be applied at the same time:

  1. Dramatica
  2. Jim Hulls Conflict Creation Method
  3. 5/7 Plot Points
  4. Save the cat
  5. Pantser approach, just writing
  6. …

Gernot

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#6

Hi Gernot, hey MWollaeger,

thank you very much for your helpful advice,
that made me walk a step further :smile:

I recently started using Scapple in combination with Dramatica (https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scapple.php) - and i discovered that it it is helpful for me to approach the whole story / concept structuring visually.

Currently i’m using a mix between your idea MWollaeger of developing the Overall Story in 6-10 Events, then the MC Line and so on - and then assigning some events the most important Plot Points like you proposed Gernot (First Plot Point, Midpoint, etc.). To see this at a glance on a really big virtual whiteboard makes it easier for me now to get the “big picture tentpoles” which hold my story together and when i zoom in i can see the most important “turning points” or “beams that hold my house”.

In short, i see that the fuse of Dramatica and other story paradigms is very helpful, if you avoid beeing dogmatic.

One last question MWollaeger… you wrote:
“Warning: many things in The Hero’s Journey and Save the Cat can lead you in the wrong direction.”

Could you explain what these wrong directions could be and how to avoid them?

Thanks again and have a good time!

Manuel

#7

Btw, I also need sometimes visual help and used a while ago a “three fold display board” (google has some nice example) where I pinned index card on it. It worked for me for a while but at the end I am faster with the approach described above and using Scrivener.

#8

I recently worked with someone who had the MC “refuse the call” – but there was no justification for it. He thought it would just work because it was in the paradigm, and didn’t bother to support it. Most readers of The Hero’s Journey believe the MC has to change, or that the MC and the Protagonist are the same person. When I first started writing, I thought that change came from overcoming obstacles, whereas the “other side” really needs to be something the MC experiences – usually in the form of watching the IC – before committing to the change. So I had characters who constantly developed and felt hollow.

I don’t know Save The Cat very well. But not all stories have B stories, which it asks for. And when they do, they generally start in the first act, not the second. Not all stories peak at the midpoint, and not all Main Characters abandon their plan for a new one at the 3/4 mark.

Neither paradigm tries to understand the connective tissue that motivates a character forward and/or explains their shortcomings.

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#9

I think when Save the Cat is referring to a B story it’s generally about something personal to the MC and often could be seen as the relationship story. So I would tent to think that it’s almost always there somewhere (though I agree there’s no particular reason why it should start in the second act.)

From my experience, models like Save The Cat, Contour, and the innumerable variants of the hero’s journey do work (at least, they’ve worked for me). It’s just that they box you into a single (admittedly broad, reasonably flexible and much beloved) form of story. The problem is that there’s always an effort to justify the model as being all-inclusive: that you can take a movie like Room (which really, really doesn’t follow the rising action…etc. stuff) and jam it into Save The Cat or any number of variants.

Dramatica’s emphasis (again, just from my point of view) is on a truly inclusive and comprehensive model of story. I’d note that even in its case, a number of my favourite films (I think The Big Sleep is one) get treated as “tales” and not complete stories (Nobody puts Phillip Marlowe in the corner!) However one doesn’t need to contort the Dramatica model in order to analyze the vast majority of films and books. It also acknowledges (something that’s important to me as a novelist) that there might be more than one storyform in a book (as Jim Hull notes on his excellent narrativefirst.com site.) Save The Cat doesn’t do that for me.

Going back to the original question, I see there the very same struggle that I face with Dramatica–a desire for a middle ground between the simplistic step-by-step models of things like Save The Cat and the much more challenging Dramatica theory of story. For me that comes from embracing the four throughlines (OS, MC, IC, RS) which, every single time I’m working on a book and something feels absent, helps me see the gap. It also comes from exploring the four domains of Situation, Activities, Fixed State of Mind, and Manipulation and trying (as best I can) to assign those correctly to the throughlines. Finally (again, just for me) going through each of the components of those four domains in the throughline over the course of the story (so, for example, with Activities it might be Obtaining, Understanding, Gathering Information, and Doing over the course of the book for the MC). I find that if I feel like I’ve got a handle on those tiers of the process, the rest will come somewhat more naturally. I’ll check the software to see what it then says about things like MC resolve and use that to inform my choices. Sometimes it seems like it’s not fitting at all and then suddenly I’m at the last draft and most if not all of it is working.

S.

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#10

I really like this approach and it’s not too dissimilar to the approach I used before I discovered Dramatica. My particular problem though is with distinguishing the correct symptom/response vs problem/solution for all the throughlines in the case of a steadfast character.

I did a lot of reading on the theory this weekend and it seems that steadfast MCs solve their problem by NOT changing from the response to the solution. So which do you choose (response/solution) for the relationship throughline, as well as the others?

#11

This is correct. If one of the principals (Main Character or Influence Character) switches to their Solution they are considered a Change(d) character. Steadfast characters maintain their Motivation (Problem) while they continue to work the Symptom through their Response.