Group online analysis of A Man For All Seasons

analysis
#41

Hi Brant, that all sounds great to me! I certainly didn’t see it that accurately before your post but it makes sense.

Your RS summary / title feels perfect.

I had a qualm about the “Henry VIII’s Regime” IC title since it sounds like it would include Cromwell. And I wasn’t sure I can see Cromwell as a valid IC representative, being so slimy that he seems to have no way to influence More, nor to be influenced himself. However, I can see that he applies other types of pressure to influence More – taking away his books, getting Meg and Alice to visit him and try to get him to give in, etc. So maybe he could count? Do you see Cromwell as being more affiliated with the OS or the IC?

I don’t think this question keeps us from moving forward though. I think the Throughline summaries so far are great! We can always worry about Cromwell later.

#42

I think Cromwell’s involvement is an important indicator of the deteriorating relationship between More and Henry - the King stops interacting with More directly and uses others as his agents (or bullies).

But otherwise, yes Cromwell himself is a minor part of the Influence perspective at best. There is an important line he echoes that will be helpful in discussing Resolve, but he’s mostly an OS character - he talks less of Henry’s bloodline and more about enforcing lockstep with the marriage.

Any other thoughts on the Relationship Story?

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#43

But only “guilty” because someone lied. They spent a lot of time, investigation and prep to get him on something, and in the end they could only lie and railroad an innocent man. Now, that did get him to speak the treasonish whatever, since he was going to be executed, anyway. That should be an important something.

#44

Oh absolutely. My point was not More’s actual guilt (or lack thereof) but rather that his relationship with the head of state changes so drastically – Henry once wanted his good opinion more than anyone else’s, but in the end he sends him to the chopping block.

Your thoughts about his final speech bring us to the next point of discussion: Main Character Resolve. Is Thomas More Change, or Steadfast?

We’ve already had some conversation in this thread about More’s last testimony, and there seems to be a question of how this affects his Resolve in the storyform. What do you all think?

#45

As far as More’s resolve… I believe he is Steadfast. Being a Steadfast character doesn’t mean you don’t have moments of weakness, or question yourself.

He could have resolved the OS problem if he had just given in to the demands. I believe his decision to hold his ground (whilst finally letting his tongue fly) demonstrates fairly conclusively that he’s a Steadfast MC.

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#46

Agreed … Steadfast. I can’t think of any way that he shifted his perspective … in fact throughout the story he seemed to get better and better at explaining his position, at getting others to see why he wouldn’t capitulate. In doing so, he strengthened his resolve.

#47

The thing I can’t figure out is that Henry, et. al. stayed the course, also, never flinching or changing, also steadfast about the marriage. I had thought at the beginning of this that it might be the law that was the key, not the marriage or kingdom. The only flinch and change I could see was Henry, et. al. giving up the law and using a liar/lie to convict More. So, in that Henry was change.

#48

@Prish, I think we’ll know more once we’re able to determine the domains of each throughline. Since we’ve suspected there may be up to 3 IC’s doing hand-offs, we may see more change in one or two of those characters than in the other. Once we know the IC domain, we may be able to more easily see some of the more subtle changes which are contextual to that domain.

#49

Henry, as the protagonist, pursues legitimacy of the marriage in the OS. But from the IC perspective, as Thomas More’s ruler, by the end he has gone back on his words to his faithful subject, that he would leave More out of the mess so long as he never directly opposed him. More keeps his end of the promise, but Henry does not.

“This isn’t Spain, this is England!” We hear this phrase twice. It’s an indicator that England is in danger of losing itself by imposing an inquisition on Thomas More. The fact that the sham trial leads to his execution shows that the character of the State has changed in the end.

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#50

@LunarDynasty Brant, excellent!

#51

Brant, that is a very insightful interpretation. I knew the Spain stuff must be important!

However, one thing is bothering me. If you are saying that the IC Changes by “going back on its word, becoming more like Spain, capable of an inquisition”, how is this change a shift in perspective to be more like More’s perspective? (Isn’t that what the Change character does, adopts the perspective of the Steadfast character? Or at least, the perspective that the Steadfast character is – consciously or unconsciously – pushing them towards?)

It sort of feels mean or unfair to suggest that Thomas More’s influence changed the State of England in such a manner.

#52

Hmmmm, good point. Let me think on that.

Because we’re working backwards, from the Story Telling down to Encoding down to Forming, it is tempting to make these sorts of connections. But because one party reacts to the steadfastness of another party does not mean that the storyform is dictating any specific judgment of the story results. Storyforms by themselves do not dictate meaning. Meaning emerges out of encoding, weaving, and especially reception. As an audience member I can just as easily interpret that More’s conscience was important enough to hold it firm until death, regardless of how the State would react to it. Both this view and the one you shared are neither supported nor refuted by the storyform.

But I get what you’re feeling. It seems weird that when one side capitulates to the other, they end up worse rivals than before, or that the Steadfast man of conscience somehow makes things worse. A couple of thoughts:

A) Typically in Dramatica, in discussing the “flavor” of an ending, we speak of two variables, Outcome and Judgment. The software suggests a third: the final state of the relationship.

Reaching the [Relationship] Story Solution means the…relationship will strengthen, lack of the [Relationship] Story Solution at the end of the story means they’re in a degenerating relationship.

A good example of this is seen in the end of The Verdict. The lawyer Frank Galvin has won the suit in the end and regained his faith in the legal system. This means that the story has the dynamics of Success, and Good. Frank’s relationship with his Impact Character Laura, however, has completely degenerated so that their orbits may never cross again. The [Relationship] Story has not reached its Solution which puts a darker spin on the end of the story than would be there if they had somehow been able to resolve the conflict between them. This darker feeling is appropriate for The Verdict. Depending on the story you’re telling, it may be appropriate for your story as well.

B) Speaking of More’s ‘influence’ on the IC is potentially misleading – they’re called the Main Character and Influence Character regardless of their Resolves. A Change IC is still the IC, and thus directs influence toward the MC. I think it’s an easy mistake to link ‘influence’ to the Resolve dynamic, assuming that the Steadfast character influences the Change one, but it’s not quite accurate.

I could be wrong, but I believe one way to interpret a Steadfast MC / Change IC scenario is to have the IC’s influence on the MC wane, to the point that the IC gives up. It’s less about the IC adopting the MC approach and more about how the MC resists the influence and remains Steadfast. In such stories the IC perspective is less relevant on its own – how it influences the MC (and succeeds or fails in this regard) is more important.

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#53

Very interesting. I’m really happy that this film has led us to this discussion, if only because I had never given the “Relationship Outcome” much thought. (It almost seems that it should be another story point in Dramatica; perhaps Chris and Melanie left it out because they didn’t yet know how it worked – i.e. whether and how it was influenced by other structural elements?)

I was wondering about your option B) when I asked the question of whether the Change character always adopts the perspective of the Steadfast character. I agree that you may not always see a similar “result of influence” in the MC -> IC direction. In fact I think @jhull mentioned in one article (I can’t remember which) that we should be careful about how we apply Resolve to the influence character, for exactly the reasons you mention.

That said, I could have sworn the Duke of Norfolk at least, among the “Henry VIII’s Regime” representatives, exhibited a change of perspective that was more like adopting Thomas More’s perspective. Do you think that is relevant? Or was I just imagining it?

Maybe we will see things more clearly if we just go ahead and try assign Domains to the Throughlines?

#54

In regards to the Influence Character question, what is the Relationship Moore has with the “State” that exists outside of the Overall Story Throughline of convincing everyone to support the King’s divorce?

While I agree there appears to be a handoff, there is really only one relationship that exists outside of the OS.

#55

Ah I see. “The State and its Subject” could be applied to everyone in the story. Not exactly a unique descriptor for the relationship between More and Henry / England.

When Henry visits More he says:

You’re known to be honest. Those like Norfolk follow me because I wear the crown. Those like Cromwell follow because they’re jackals with sharp teeth and I’m their tiger. A mass follows me because it follows anything that moves.

And then there’s you.

I don’t know how to abbreviate this or sum it up in a Relationship tagline, but this potentially hints at what’s unique between the two of them.

#56

What is the relationship between More and Henry that exists outside of “king/subject”? I’m not sure there is one. Plus, don’t they only have like one scene between the two of them?

#57

Hmmm I think you’re right. That scene was so pivotal to the movie that I got carried away in seeing Henry as the influence peddler, whether in person or via proxy.

If Henry is strictly OS, then I would say the IC is primarily Norfolk. They start out as friends, but that breaks down over the story.

I considered Richard Rich as IC when I first watched it, as his false testimony ties things up at the end (and he goes from More’s pupil to his betrayer) but I don’t really see how he has any influence on More, who has a poor opinion of him from the beginning.

Who would you pick?

#58

Watching it for the first time yesterday, I thought for sure Rich was going to be the IC. After all, it’s John Hurt!!..the War Doctor as a little kid lol!

And I imagined that towards the end Rich would side with More over everyone else, but as you point out that didn’t happen.

It feels like there is a handoff from time-to-time but that could be a result of where the Overall Story Throughline is. Still, there may be a handoff situation, just won’t know for sure until you establish the Throughlines and the Domains they are in, but for sure–the one relationship outside of the OS that has any significance is the friendship between Norfolk and More. That scene where More basically gets Norfolk to take a swing at him is all Relationship Story Throughline.

I think too, in the matter of Resolve, Norfolk is the one that shows the greatest “change” over all of them. The Norfolk in the courtroom is nothing like the Norfolk we first meet at More’s estate.

Regardless, the ending narration suggests that all the candidates for IC Changed–they were all punished in some form or another for high treason–just like More.

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#59

Wow, I was so focused on analyzing how the denouement worked into Story Goal vs Consequence that I didn’t see how it demonstrated Resolve. Nice!

Thanks for helping me course-correct, Jim. And @Prish, I applaud your instinct on the problems with Henry as IC, you were right on the money.

Does everyone feel currently satisfied with choice of IC and the Resolve? If not, make it known! If yes, we can continue with discussing MC Approach: Is Thomas More a Do-er, or Be-er?

#60

I’m definitely happy with IC and Resolve. Although I’m still glowing in how Jim supported my comments about the Duke of Norfolk being the best Change character, so I’d probably agree with anything right now :slight_smile: . (I felt the same way about the scene where More made Norfolk pretend to fight him.)

Do we need to summarize exactly who the candidates for IC are so everyone’s clear? It’s a bit hard to piece together the group’s “current thinking” from the thread. Wolsey and Norfolk are definitely “in” I think but I’m not sure what we’re saying now about Henry. Or are we leaving it a bit vague because of how the IC is defined as a Regime?