Group online analysis of A Man For All Seasons

analysis
#122

Okay, that sells me on Norfolk’s Situation: The duke, because of his station and place in England, is under scrutiny and could suffer from being associated with More, unless the latter violates his conscience and takes the Oath. So rather than give in, More pushes Norfolk away.

Not quite sold on Activity as the domain of conflict in their Relationship yet. I don’t think bulldogs or differences of worship are really generating friction between them.

Is it perhaps abstaining from Activity that puts pressure on their friendship? Norfolk takes the oath, he works in the government, he hashes out cases with Cromwell, he does the King’s bidding – and More does none of it. He purposefully retires from these things. He was participating, but now he’s not, and what’s worse he won’t say why.

More’s resignation from the Chancellorship seems to signal a major turn in their friendship. In any case, they seem to measure the relationship by outward deeds and acts, and the duke is having trouble making sense of More’s.

Also, different ways of thinking (i.e. Manipulation) has never created problems between them in the past - they’re clearly different thinkers and value different things, but they’ve been long friends. It isn’t until More’s actions start diverging from the usual that their friendship suffers (thus Activity).

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#123

I think you’ve nailed it Brant. Awesome. Even your phrase “he won’t say why” is an example of More’s abstaining from an Activity that causes trouble between them.

I had mentioned “governing” in an earlier post but couldn’t figure out how it caused friction between them. Much more clear now!

The “opposite sides of the same coin” view of IC vs. MC is also becoming more clear. The Duke and the Chancellor, both powerful government figures. But because of Norfolk’s situation as a noble, he must perform the activities you mentioned (governing, doing the King’s bidding). While because of Thomas’s deep convictions (fixed attitude), he must abstain from the same activities.

#124

Among other things I think Norfolk taking a swing at More is a nice encoding for Activity in the Relationship Story Throughline!

The other Throughlines sound just as good - with the OS in Manipulation (all about manipulating More, the papacy, the church in England, etc.), the MC in Fixed Attitude (snooty know-it-all), and the IC in Situation (upwardly mobile buddy).

Just my two cents - but I think everyone is on the right track. The question now is…

…what’s the Concern?

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#125

I think Conceiving for the OS. Henry works to persuade others to conceive of a church without the papacy, of an England where he can do what’s best for the country (and/or himself).

KING: Then you see your way clear to me?
MORE: That you should put away Queen Catherine, Sire? Alas, as I think of it, I see so clearly that I cannot come with Your Grace, that my endeavor is not to think of it at all.
KING: Then you haven’t thought enough!

If he can just get everyone around to the idea that his way is the best way, then he won’t need to “brook opposition.” Once everyone agrees with Henry’s vision then the imprisonings and executions will end.

#126

Can I ask if the common practice when doing a group analysis is to just consider one throughline Concern on its own first? Or do you look at how the choice (e.g. upper-left element of quads, like Conceiving) affects all throughlines?

I actually liked Conceptualizing (Developing a Plan) for the OS. It seemed like everyone had the idea for the solution in mind – ensure everyone takes the Oath. But because of More’s reticence, everyone was concerned with “how do we get More to capitulate? we need a plan!” This planning (and re-planning) involved everyone: King Henry, Cromwell, Rich, Norfolk, even Meg and Alice (More’s wife).

And I could see More’s explanations to people about the law and his conscience as trying to get people to Conceptualize his ideas. For example, the way he explained to Meg about taking an oath being like holding his own self like water in his hands … trying to get her to conceptualize his idea of it. (But, maybe I’m using too much of the English definition of conceptualize, rather than the Dramatica definition.)

HOWEVER, looking at what this does to the other Throughlines (not sure if I’m supposed to be doing this yet, so apologies if I’m getting ahead) … I’m no longer convinced. RS I could see definitely see as Understanding but the MC and IC Concerns of Memories and The Past do not seem to fit.

#127

I would do all four at once.

#128

The whole package is definitely part of the reason why I think Conceiving works best for the OS, as it places the IC in Present and the MC in Conscious.

Norfolk is a noble, and is expected to toe the line like one, right here right now. And I can’t see how the other concerns under Fixed Attitude could fit Thomas More better than Conscious:

Because what matters is that I believe it, or rather, no… not that I believe it, but that “I” believe it.

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#129

Thanks guys. Yes I absolutely agree … the newer term of Contemplation for Conscious also sheds light on how it fits for More. Several times when faced with difficulty he would stop to put his head down and contemplate, but this generally caused more trouble (e.g. during the long conversation with King Henry, or when he was mulling over what to do with the bribe-gifted cup).

Also I reviewed the Dramatica definitions and gists and I think I can see how Conceiving fits better for OS than Conceptualizing … if you really look at where the conflict is coming from you see:

  • Henry wants his Chancellor (first Wolsely, then More) to come up with an idea on how he can divorce Katherine

  • Brant’s point above about Henry trying to get everyone to conceive of a church without the papacy, to get them to see his vision

  • More’s inability to conceive of a way to obey his King, though he tries:
    ALICE: You crossed him! … Why?
    MORE: I couldn’t find the other way.

  • everyone else’s difficulty conceiving why More won’t capitulate

  • and finally … Henry’s inability to conceive a healthy heir with Katherine!!! :slight_smile: Not sure if this properly fits Dramatica’s Conceiving (an idea) but it’s definitely one of the biggest overall story concerns. And a baby is “something fresh, something new” like an idea…

#130

Haha, yeah Conceiving is all about the internal process of new ideas. The external version you describe (impotency / barrenness) would better fit a concern under Situation if it were the source of conflict in the story.

You bring up an important point, because it would be easy to think the troubles in A Man For All Seasons are rooted in Katherine’s inability to give Henry an heir. So why isn’t the OS in Situation?

The script comes right out and tells us:

WOLSEY: The King wants a son; what are you going to do about it?
MORE: I’m very sure the King needs no advice from me on what to do about it.

The problem is not whether Henry can sire an son. It’s an inequity, to be sure, but it’s not what’s stirring the hornet’s nest, as More points out. The problem is whether Henry can manipulate everyone (the Pope, the nobility, the whole of England) to accept his plan for the Tudor dynasty, marrying / divorcing whomever he wants at his behest.

Anyway, I know this is a bit redundant regarding the domains, but I enjoyed how the script carefully (and early on) specified the source of trouble.

#131

It’s definitely a good idea to look at how your choices affect each throughline, not only for the Concern but for other story points as well. Every choice has its impact. When everything seems to line up (as well as possible) in the other throughlines, you know you’re getting closer.

#132

Thanks Brant, excellent points, that helps solidify things.

@Rod – thanks, makes sense. I know that at some points during analysis it helps to consider things separately (like first determining throughline titles, and assigning Domains one at a time) because trying to consider everything at once can be overwhelming and make it easier to miss the essence of a story point or throughline. But I guess we’re at the point now where we need to consider the impacts of our choices!

What’s next? I think we’ve successfully argued the Overall Story Concern of Conceiving and Main Character Concern of Conscious (Contemplation). We still need to back up Relationship Story Concern of Understanding, and a bit more detail on Influence Character Concern of The Present would be nice.

#133

The Relationship Concern is actually Learning (Gathering Information), as it resides in the lower-right quadrant like the other concerns in their respective domains.

As Norfolk becomes more involved in investigating More’s opinions, their relationship continues to sour. He even senses that Gathering Information will create problems for his friend when he tells Cromwell, “But he’s silent…why not leave him silent? I still say, let sleeping dogs lie.” Also:

DUKE: You’re dangerous to know.
MORE: Then don’t know me.

#134

Sorry, my bad, I was analyzing some other stories with RS Concern of Understanding and had that on the brain, I guess!

Your illustrations sound great. Also, I wanted to ask if Learning of something external that puts pressure on their relationship would make sense as the Concern. Something like: As they learn that More is close to being charged with treason – that it is dangerous to be associated with him – they realize they can no longer remain friends.

#135

That’s more or less correct. The important thing to remember with Learning is that the concern is about the process of gathering info rather than the info itself. It’s about how one is learning and not what is being learned. It’s like a guy taking a night class in his favorite topic - his wife doesn’t have a problem with him pursuing his interests (whatever they may be) but did he have to choose a class where the only slot was on their date night?

#136

Thanks for taking the time to help me on that, Brant. I think I should stick to the newer term Gathering Information to help me keep that distinction. (Of course I’d read the definition a dozen times before but nothing makes it stick like actually trying to apply it!)

So maybe the strain on the relationship is because of how they learn of the danger More has put himself (and anyone associated with him) in. They keep learning through underhanded ways – threats from Cromwell, etc. It would be better if they could learn straight from the source (the King) or from each other.

In fact I think the scenes go like this:

  1. Cromwell tells Norfolk “The King particularly wishes you to be active in this matter of Sir Thomas.” Norfolk is annoyed that Cromwell is telling him that, rather than the King: “He’s not told me that.” Cromwell: “Indeed? He told me.” The scene ends with Norfolk asking Cromwell if he’s threatening him, to which Cromwell replies “My dear Norfolk, this isn’t Spain. It’s England!”
  2. Then we have the scene where Cromwell sits down with More to tell him how bad his position is, culminating in “Then know that the King commands me to charge you, in his name, with great ingratitude! And to tell you that there never was, nor could be, so villainous a servant, nor so traitorous a subject, as yourself!”
  3. Next, the big Relationship Story scene where the “You’re dangerous to know” quote is from. They discuss ending the friendship, argue, and Norfolk takes a swing at More.

Not that the impact of the Concern has to be shown in the immediate next scene, but the fact they were organized like that might be a hint at author’s intent. So you could almost codify the RS Concern as “Learning of their danger through Cromwell’s threats”.

#137

Everyone on this thread agreed that there seems to be a hand-off or two in the IC perspective, and the Cromwell interrogation business may well be part of it.

In any case, well-encoded stories slide effortlessly from one story point to another – plenty of it in Bolt’s script.

Are there any differing suggestions on the Concerns from everyone else? Mike and I are leaning toward Conceiving / Learning / Conscious / Present. @Prish @Rod @jhull

#138

Jim, would it work the same to say hanging on buddy or grasping at the edge of the cliff as pal gets tossed off it buddy or grabbing a hold of the lifeboat buddy?

#139

I’m doing catch up. Do you post the so far current storyform results, somewhere?

#140

Here’s the consensus thus far:

  • RESOLVE: Steadfast
  • GROWTH: Stop
  • APPROACH: Be-er
  • PS STYLE: Linear
  • DRIVER: Decision
  • LIMIT: Optionlock
  • OUTCOME: Failure
  • JUDGMENT: Good
  • OS DOMAIN: Psychology
  • OS CONCERN: Conceiving
#141

“taking a swing at More is a nice encoding for Activity”…and that does fit the restrained physicality of the film.