That’s a cool story! I’m not convinced it’s this story though.
Actually that sounds like a perfect formulation to me.
I’m not sure what you mean here. Yes, it’s clearly an intro to the larger trilogy … but what do you mean by substory vs. the actual story of the first book?
That used to be true, but it’s changed. There are lot of Start stories now that have a “giving up” or “getting out of your own way” premise (focusing on giving up the Problem).
The main problem I have with this premise is the oddity of giving up an inability. It just doesn’t feel, nor sound, “right” in the wording. Besides, it’s really more like Katniss gives up her ability to protect her loved ones, which is definitely severe.
What I meant by this is that I was looking at the form derived by the group as setting the stage for a likely similar form over the trilogy. But, that same form would be a backseat story to whatever the front fold of the book actually is.
Though, now that I look back at my explanations of the Upper Right, I think I was relying too much on the Games alone (third act) for that form. Meaning that I still like our original form.
I completely agree! In the earlier post where someone first wrote “disrupt an abhorrent tradition” I was like, WHOA! Perfect! Although I actually I think we can improve the second part a tad: “While severe, you can disrupt an abhorrent tradition by giving up your ability to make it home to your family.”
EDIT: and just saw @Hunter’s post … I think we’re on the same wavelength here!
I think the point of the “give up” formulation is because the MC Crucial Element is the MC Problem for a Changed character.
Note I can see the logic of a Progress Concern but that storyform is missing the “falling into place” coherence of the current one. In particular, Peeta’s IC Issue of State of Being is super clear – not just as a source of influence, but also in the perspective that Katniss changes to.
So, I can definitely see why you pursued it Hunter – it got me thinking for sure – but I do prefer the one we arrived at. Sounds like you do now too! 
There are more aspects that fit, too. But nearly all of them fit most strongly in the third act, once the games have officially started.
However, especially after comparing the Signposts between the two, I found the form I examined just doesn’t fit over the course of the entire story. Though, the one we’ve been working with fits really well.
Thus, to summarize, here’s what we’ve agreed upon, as far as I can tell:
While severe, you can disrupt an abhorrent tradition by giving up being able to return to your family.*
MC Resolve: Change
MC Growth: Stop
MC Approach: Do-er
MC Mindset: Linear
Story Driver: Action
Story Limit: Spacelock
Story Outcome: Success
Story Judgement: Bad
OS Domain: Universe
OS Concern: The Past
OS Issue: Interdiction
OS Problem: Ability
*I modified it slightly to make it work for me, but it can easily be adjusted to whatever makes sense.
I see where you’re coming from and I would be fine with that.
However – while I agree that “giving up your inability to fight back” is awkwardly phrased, I like the broader implications implied. Yes, Katniss gives up her ability to go home. But more broadly–and yes, it’s a little weird to put it this way–her move “removes the inability” of the citizens of Panem to fight back against the Capitol. They realize they are not powerless. They start to give up their powerlessness. Something like that.
Looks like we’re agreed on the storyform though!
I feel that attributing this to the Dividends of Understanding, as in “understanding one can fight back”, would be much better. But, I do see what you’re trying to get at.
The following is complete opinion and absolutely philosophical. Feel free to ignore.
Giving up an inability, giving up that which you are incapable of doing or incapable of being, specifically by stopping something, just doesn’t make any sense at a Character/Element level to me. I’m not saying one can’t give up an inability, only that I see it as requiring starting something.
It can make sense at the Theme/Issue level, if one gives up what is disallowed, but trying to go any deeper drives me insane to think about.
All that said, I realize that is heavily influenced by my perceptions, and someone may well be able to write a GAS to prove me wrong. For now, though, I haven’t read such a story.
I hear you, Hunter. It is certainly awkward. But maybe think about a little kid who isn’t able to tie his shoes, and he ruins his whole day trying to tie them, getting more and more frustrated the whole time. Until he just gives it up and watches TV and eats some ice cream, and then the next morning he can suddenly tie them without hardly trying.
Some more verification. I was thinking about this story and realized we never checked the PSR. And the idea popped into my head, “wow wouldn’t it be cool if the Act 4 RS was Prerequisites / Strategy / Analysis / Preconditions?”.
So I checked. And it is! Amazing!
All of those are super strong in Act 4 with the relationship between Katniss and Peeta, but especially the relationship “playing by someone else’s rules” (Preconditions) – wow that is just perfect for what happens between them.
Maybe it’s just my extremely Linear mind mixing up Desire and Ability, but I still see that as giving up the Desire to tie one’s shoes. That he now can is a result of his practice, certainly, but it’s also the Desire is no longer in his way. (Also, of course, that isn’t a full story, so interpretations are a bit free…)
That is awesome!
I didn’t have that thought, but I did wonder (before I looked) if RS 4 was Conscious – in the book at least it’s very clear that now that the games are over, they are thinking about the nature of their relationship.
Okay thanks to @mlucas @Hunter and everyone else who participated.
I read through the thread and cut and pasted our illustrations so far into the story guide (with a few small edits for clarity) to get a report illustrating our chosen storyform. Obviously not every story point is illustrated (and some are overillustrated lol) but are there any major holes we need to fill in? At what point can we submit this to Jim for feedback?
PROJECT OVERVIEW REPORT
Story Title: The Hunger Games
Story Author: Suzanne Collins
**Story Logline: **
“While severe, you can disrupt an abhorrent tradition by giving up your inability to fight back.”
“While severe, you can disrupt an abhorrent tradition by giving up your ability to make it home to your family.”
THE OBJECTIVE STORY THROUGHLINE: Staging the 74th Hunger Games
Objective Story Synopsis:
DRIVER: Action
First Driver – Prim gets chosen at the Reaping, which forces Katniss to volunteer.
Second Driver – Either the arrival at the Capitol, or maybe the chariot display with fire-clothing (interesting to know where these fall in the book in terms of page count) [NEED TO CLARIFY]
Third Driver (Midpoint) – The Games begin
Fourth Driver – The gammeakers first “rule change” allowing two same-district victors.
Concluding Driver – The gamemakers change the rules again, forcing Katniss and Peeta’s decision to threaten suicide with the berries.
LIMIT: Optionlock
OUTCOME: Success
Katniss is the Protagonist and the Outcome/Judgement is Success/Bad.
By forcing the gamemakers to declare two victors, Katniss and Peeta disrupt the longstanding tradition of the game.
JUDGMENT: Bad
Tha last chapter of the book is all about how Katniss and Peeta have to rewatch the deaths of the other tributes in a video recap, how they have to be extremely careful in how they present themselves, while underneath they’re obviously traumatized.
DOMAIN: Universe
The Universe of Panem has something wrong with it – there is a problem with its state. Something is broken, stuck, and needs to be changed.
Our introduction to the story involves the way the world is, and taken as a whole, even in the first story, the Author is clearly indicating there is a problem in the Universe, even if the characters themselves either don’t see it or don’t agree. That problem is that the Hunger Games are a standing and standard yearly event that induces fear and maintains control over the citizens. This thing just is…
From the perspective of Katniss and the other tributes—who have been chosen at random—winning the games is much more about survival than victory, which even if achieved is hollow (as we see from Hamich). From the perspective of the Capital, the goal is to put on a spectacle that humiliates the districts, reminds them of their defeat and subjugation, and keeps them in their place.
If you took away “winning the games”, the Districts would still be subject to the tyrannical rule of the Capital.
For these reasons, the OS is in Universe. A fixed, ongoing, external situation—the tyrannical rule of the Capital—is what’s at root of the conflict in this story.
CONCERN: The Past
The point of the Games is to symbolically recreate the Capital’s past victory over the districts and remind them of their subservience and the risks of rebellion. The book begins with 74th Hunger Games – that means the ritual has been playing out fine for 73 years. It doesn’t matter who wins, as long as there one and only one winner.
The Issues under Past confirm that this is the Concern. For example, Fate vs. Destiny (“May the odds be ever in your favor!”) – The Capital wants to drum in the idea that it controls the fate of every citizen of the districts. At the same time, Katniss and Peeta show that they actually can take control of their Destinies.
Fate: “May the odds be ever in your favor”
Prediction: Who will win the hunger games? Can you convince the sponsors that you have a shot?
Interdiction: Katniss volunteers to take Prim’s place; everyone is vying to get help from sponsors during the games (which comes in the from of little parachutes that change the course of events); the rules get changed (twice).
Destiny: “Following an Inescapable Path” “Resisting Something’s Fortune” (by threatening to the eat the poison berries) . The whole star-crossed lovers idea that keeps getting repeated over and over again.
ISSUE: Interdiction vs. Prediction
Katniss’s volunteers to take Prim’s place, all of the tributes are vying to get sponsors to intervene during the games (which comes in the from of little parachutes that change the course of events), the gamemamakers “play God” during the games, pushing the contestants into combat, and the the rules get changed (twice).
Katniss’s trick with the berries isn’t that allowed her to survive, or even that both she and Peeta survived. It’s that it demonstrated agency on the part of the powerless, and thus destroyed the whole purpose of the games. Dignity, agency, defiance—even in the face of death—is the repeated theme. Peeta mentions this before they go in—something to the effect that even if he’s killed he wants it to be on his own terms (“showing them they don’t own me”). It’s expressed in Katniss’s putting flowers on Rue after she dies, which is interpreted by everyone as an act of defiance.
Katniss volunteering to take Prim’s place is a big interdiction (intervening on her behalf) and basically the whole the story
The sponsors intervene on behalf of the tributes with their little gifts of medicine etc. In the movie, Haymitch intervenes to help Katniss
The gamemakers keep intervening (stopping Katniss with a wall of fire, adding the dog beasts, etc.). The rule changes are a huge intervention.
The whole Hunger Games intervenes on the regular life of the Districts as a way of interdicting another uprising
PROBLEM: Ability
Everyone is concerned with who will have the Ability to win the games and go home to their families. At the same time, the games themselves are designed to highlight the impotence (inability) of the Districts to ever fight back against the Capitol.
SOLUTION: Desire
Katniss and Peeta’s Desire for each other overcomes the Problem of who has the Ability to win the games.
FOCUS: Equity
OS Focus of Equity, some really interesting gists pop up:
I think in a lot of cases the Capitol tries to focus on the positive aspects of these, pretending that things are fair, that the odds can be in your favour, that the Reaping is random and thus fair, etc. While the protagonists (Katniss et. al.) and the Distrincts see the negative aspects as problems (things aren’t fair, the Capitol has all the wealth and power; the Gamemakers don’t always create a fair playing field, tributes like Rue are unfairly young etc.).
Tributes seeking favor and trying to get a better score than others (11 for Katniss, 7 for Rue) are good examples of the Direction of Inequity. Actually, the Careers teaming up and ganging up on others, also fits a Direction of Inequity really well. It’s like “Katniss is too close to our level” (Focus: Equity) so let’s gang up on her (Direction: Inequity). Leading to Katniss and Rue seeing how unfair that is, and responding by tipping the balance in their favour (that’s an Inequity gist, and it’s funny how Katniss literally tips the tracker-jacker nest out of the tree).
Even the Hunger Games themselves are Equity -> Inequity. “In order to seek stability in Panem we randomly and fairly select two people from each district to take on a disproportionate sacrifice”
The games are supposed to be fair (Equity) but are also set up so you can put your name in more than once to get more food but this will give you a greater chance of getting chosen (Inequity).
And then there’s very idea that the tributes are supposed to play by the rules in the arena – but in the end, Katniss and Peeta break the rules.
DIRECTION: Inequity
[SEE Focus]
CATALYST: Destiny
INHIBITOR: Truth
BENCHMARK: The Future
SIGNPOST 1: The Past
Past (history of the games and Districts / Uprising is really strong in the first act, as is Katniss’s family history with her father dying).
SIGNPOST 2: The Future
Everyone is in the Capitol training and doing interviews, with the imminent death-match of the Games hanging over their heads.
SIGNPOST 3: Progress
Progress (the progress of the Games themselves, how many tributes are dying and how quickly, how are things going for the tributes).
SIGNPOST 4: The Present
Present (Peeta’s present circumstances with his injury and need of medicine NOW, Peeta and Katniss being there for each other, the race to the Cornucopia, taking the berries). Also the long, slow death of Cato; the need to just “survive the day”.
GOAL: The Past
CONSEQUENCE: Memory
Consequence of Memory is very clear at the end of the story when Peeta throws away his knife and tells Katniss to kill him. They go back and forth:
“Then you shoot me,” I say furiously, shoving the weapons back at him. “You shoot me and go home and live with it!” And as I say it, I know death right here, right now, would be the easier of the two … “You’re not leaving me here alone,” I say. Because if he dies, I’ll never go home, not really. I’ll spend the rest of my life in this arena trying to think my way out … And he goes on about how he loves me, what life would be without me…"
If only one of them gets out, that would be a Failure with Consequences of having to remember it for the rest of their lives. When both of them get out, that is Success.
COST: Conceptualizing
DIVIDEND: Understanding
REQUIREMENT: The Future
PREREQUISITE: The Subconscious
PRECONDITION: Becoming
FOREWARNINGS: Obtaining
At the climax of the story, all the other tributes are dead and Katniss and Peeta think they’re about to rescued. Instead, they get another rule change – that there can be only one victor.
MAIN CHARACTER THROUGHLINE: Katniss Everdeen
Main Character Synopsis:
MC RESOLVE: Change
Katniss Everdeen moves from a motivation of just being able to return to District 12 to Peeta Malark’s motivation of wanting to stand up to the Capitol by dying with dignity.
MC GROWTH: Stop
Katniss clearly has a chip on her shoulder; she feels misunderstood and alone, abandoned not only by her father who died in mine accident by by her mother, who has never recovered from the trauma of that event.
MC APPROACH: Do-er
Katniss prefers to solve problems by affecing her external environment – whether by hunting, or volunteering in the games.
MC MENTAL SEX: Male
DOMAIN: Physics
In the beginning, Katniss is forced to hunting for the family, performing illegal activities to do so (Physics).
A very common illustration for Physics in other stories is something like “raising a family” or “parenting”. I think that fits Katniss perfectly. After her father died she was forced to become the breadwinner for her family, the main parent.
And this not only works for Act 1 but carries through the whole film – she volunteers and does her best to survive all for Prim, the way a mother would. Until the very end when she Changes and adopts Peeta’s perspective that it’s better to accept death, even it means not coming home to Prim, than to give up who you truly are (to let them change you).
CONCERN: Understanding
ISSUE: Instinct vs. Conditioning
Her motherly instincts towards Prim. Her instinct to run and find nature. She has no instincts for getting people to like her. In the games, Katniss’s instinct is to put as much distance between her and the other Tributes makes her a target for the game makers and their wall of fire. Even the suspicion towards Peeta that you mentioned might be on the Instinctual level. Certainly her instincts tell her not to trust the people in the Capitol, even the people who are her friends or who can help her.
PROBLEM: Ability
SOLUTION: Desire
FOCUS: Knowledge
DIRECTION: Thought
UNIQUE ABILITY: Conditioning
CRITICAL FLAW: State of Being
BENCHMARK: Obtaining
SIGNPOST 1: Learning
SIGNPOST 2: Understanding
SIGNPOST 3: Doing
SIGNPOST 4: Obtaining
INFLUENCE CHARACTER THROUGHLINE: Peeta Malark
Obstacle Character Synopsis:
OC RESOLVE: Steadfast
DOMAIN: Psychology
Peeta creates influence stemming from Psychology–wishing to remain true to himself in spite of the Capitol’s desire to change him.
In the following clip, he explains his perspective to Katniss, basically naming all of the Concerns under Psychology: “I don’t want them to change me [Becoming], I wish I could think of a way [Conceptualizing] to show them [Conceiving] they don’t own me. If I’m going to die I still want to be me [Being].”
The clip also highlights the IC influence to change as well. Katniss says, “I can’t afford to think like that, I have my sister” contrasted with the end where she *does* think like that and manipulates them with the berries.
CONCERN: Conceptualizing
Of the four Psychology Concerns, Conceptualizing is the strongest. The clip with Peeta also highlights the IC Concern of Conceptualizing and it’s quad of Variations beneath. Sense of Self and State of Being are seen in how Peeta doesn’t want them to change him, and he grapples with what he means by that. Peeta and Katniss’s shared Situation is apparent from the beginning of the scene, the shared silence as the crowd chants outside; and Peeta’s words prompt Katniss to consider her Circumstances in regards to saving her sister Prim.
ISSUE: State of Being vs. Sense of Self
Some of gists that highlight Peeta’s influence through State of Being:
PROBLEM: Aware
Being sensitive, being perceptive, sensing what others feel all describe Peeta’s drives.
Also consider how much he influences Katniss in terms of Aware – he makes her aware that there’s someone else she cares about besides her own family, aware of her feelings. He gets her to pay attention to what the audience / gamemakers think of her. All of this influence brings Katniss closer to being motivated by Desire.
SOLUTION: Self Aware
FOCUS: Equity
DIRECTION: Inequity
UNIQUE ABILITY: Sense of Self
CRITICAL FLAW: Instinct
BENCHMARK: Becoming
SIGNPOST 1: Becoming
SIGNPOST 2: Conceptualizing
SIGNPOST 3: Being
SIGNPOST 4: Conceiving
SUBJECTIVE STORY THROUGHLINE: The Subjective Story
Subjective Story Synopsis:
DOMAIN: Mind
The memory of the moment when Peeta threw the bread to Katniss is shown many times in the movie. It’s a memory that defines both the relationship and how their attitude toward one another affects the growth of that relationship.
CONCERN: Memory
It is their memories of each other that serve as the foundation of their relationship.
ISSUE: Suspicion vs. Evidence
By virtue of being in Hunger Games together, they should automatically be suspicious of each other. But also, their “star crossed lovers” bit is something that sits under an implied cloud of suspicion – they’d better not give anyone any reason to doubt its sincerity.
PROBLEM: Projection
Fine, they’re in love now, but extend that to the future and … only one of them can survive the Hunger Games, right? Other Projection Gists:
SOLUTION: Speculation
While elements of Speculation may come in, the relationship remains unresolved by the end of Book 1:
“I don’t know. The closer we get to District Twelve, the more confused I get,” I say.
“Well, let me know when you figure it out,” he says, and the pain in his voice is palpable.
FOCUS: Equity
DIRECTION: Inequity
CATALYST: Falsehood
INHIBITOR: Fate
BENCHMARK: The Subconscious
SIGNPOST 1: Memory
SIGNPOST 2: The Preconscious
SIGNPOST 3: The Subconscious
SIGNPOST 4: The Conscious
Now that the games are over, they are thinking about the nature of their relationship.
Wow! You did a lot of work there! Great stuff @Lakis.
I think it’s ready for Jim to look at now!
Okay @jhull I think we’re done! Care to take a look if and when you have a chance? (See the summary above).
(However, if anyone else wants to weigh in or has other points, please feel free).
I can just watch the movie, right?
Yes, for sure! Note, we found one difference between book and movie (one story point). I’ll enclose in a spoiler tag but it’s not a huge deal so it’s up to you if you want to read about it beforehand.
This is an interesting case where the book and film have the same storyform except the film removes most traces of the Bad Judgment ending. So the film seems to have a Good Judgment, although all the Signposts and Benchmarks and UA/CF still fit the Success/Bad storyform.
I actually wonder if this is why the film left a bad taste in some people’s mouths. @MWollaeger commented at one point that it messed up the premise that Katniss didn’t have to kill very many people – almost like he was saying it wasn’t severe enough.
I think, looking back on it, the way I feel might be more like this: if you are going to give someone a trait, then you should test that trait.
Batman also doesn’t kill. The Joker pushes and pushes on this button… we want to see if he can break Batman.
I know Katniss is there for a much younger audience, so they may not want to see much of this…
I think it must be more overt and dark in the book. She actually gets pushed on this constantly, and she almost kills Peeta’s at the climax. The difference is that unlike Batman, the principle she goes in with is “I guess I’ll do what it takes to survive” where Peeta’s position is “I don’t want them to change me”. At the end she switches to being willing to die rather than kill him (which resolves the OS as well).
But I also agree with @mlucas about the importance of the Judgement. At the end of the book, it’s really clear that she and Peeta are traumatized and re-traumatized (as they would be) by what they’ve seen, what they’ve been forced to do (killing in self-defense) and what they were almost forced to do. Without that, it could feel a bit like they dodged a bullet via some deus ex machina.
Let me be upfront about this: I haven’t read the books and don’t know the movie well (saw it once, way back when) and am not really a part of this conversation besides pure speculation.
The book you are describing seems to be unlike the movie I saw. There is no trauma in the movie, except that Woody Harrelson is clearly traumatized deeply.
“I guess I’ll do what it takes to survive” seems so bland I can’t believe it’s real, but even then, you would realize you have to fight to win.
[Donnie Brasco, Old Guard, Hunger Games, Fringe, Little Fires Everywhere… there are so many individuals throwing out things to dissect. How many people are active in the forum to try to engage in meaningful discussions on all of them?]
Probably not enough. But I thought we did a pretty good job with the Hunger Games (we’ll see what Jim has to say )
I feel like my sentence is missing a comma or all actual grammar. Glad it made sense.
I guess my question, too, was just that… there are only a few people and so many varied interests that we can’t always seem to get to 80% of things when it’s specific to a published movie/tv show.